sagark ☆ India, 2010-07-29 04:26 (5402 d 04:49 ago) Posting: # 5698 Views: 11,783 |
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Dear members, This is my first post to the forum. I would like to thank HS for running and all for contributing their views into this excellent forum. I have doubts for the concept of manual integration. In what cases it is done and what are the considerations for it? Is it accepted by USFDA? Also how does one know if the manual integration done is proper or not. Please guide Sagar |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-07-29 17:30 (5401 d 15:44 ago) @ sagark Posting: # 5699 Views: 11,508 |
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Dear Sagar! ❝ This is my first post to the forum. I would like to thank HS for running and all for contributing their views into this excellent forum. Welcome to the club and thanks for the ![]() ❝ I have doubts for the concept of manual integration. In what cases it is done and what are the considerations for it? For some background have a look at these posts: 2261, 2728, 4447. Let’s have a look how peak integration in chromatography is performed. The detector may deliver signals at high data rates. But if we would use this raw signal, we would see a lot of noise on top of even high peaks. Therefore the raw signal is bundled to slices (either – rarely – within the detector or by the CDS), based on an appropriate time constant. As a rule of thumb for the narrowest peak the width at half height should be divided by ≈10–20. For a 10s peak we would set the data aquisition rate to 0.5–1s (60–120Hz). For long runtimes it is advisable to increase the bundling rate for late eluting peaks. The data system detects the start end end of peak based on – at least – following parameters (terms may differ!):
It’s important to realize that there is no ‘right’ integration for any given peak. Even if you export the chromatogram’s raw data (peak slices – detector’s response is not stored!) and try to obtain the same peak area with another data system it will be almost impossible because the internal algorithms are different (and not documented in the manual – just my 2¢). ❝ Is it accepted by USFDA? Yes. You have to have an SOP in place and report which chromatograms were reintegrated (why, by whom, when: all the usual stuff needed for an audit trail). See also an article by John Dolan.1 ❝ Also how does one know if the manual integration done is proper or not. Our brain is a perfect pattern-recognition-system. IMHO any experienced chromatographer will be able to draw baselines better than the CDS’ ones. An excursion into history: before integrators were used in chromatography, strip chart recorders were used. The baseline was drawn by a ruler and the peak height measured. The first integrator was introduced in 1968 (Hewlett Packard 3370), but manual ‘integration’ was the rule until the mid 1970ies. If an inspector has some problems with manual integration remind him/her on drugs getting approval earlier. Would they question these results? All chromatograms should be reviewed and the integration corrected if necessary. The only textbook on chromatographic integration methods2 states in the introduction: No analytical report should be accepted unquestioningly. See also this presentation on manual integration by Bob Di Rienzo and Melinda Jacobson from The NELAC Institute's Forum for Laboratory Accreditation, Newport Beach, CA, January 2008. Below a nice example3 (LC/MS-MS, risperidone, protein precipitation, dilution factor 8, API 4000, software Analyst 1.4.1, n=10); 1 ng/ml and 0.1 ng/ml (LLOQ):
If the employees were well trained the values in the region of the LOQ were rather better than with an automated integration. Look at the CV ranges! Even ‘bad’ analysts got CVs close to the automated integration, but ‘good’ ones outmanouvered silicon-brains with great ease.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-07-29 23:07 (5401 d 10:08 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5700 Views: 10,540 |
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❝ If an inspector has some problems with manual integration remind him/her on drugs getting approval earlier. Ah, you mean something like "If we'd had properly working integration systems back in the 60'ies then you wouldn't have been born" or something along those lines? EM. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-07-30 03:30 (5401 d 05:44 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 5701 Views: 10,861 |
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Mon capitaine! ❝ Ah, you mean something like "If we'd had properly working integration systems back in the 60'ies then you wouldn't have been born" or something along those lines? Almost. ![]() But due to mercy of a (little) more recent birth I hadn’t to fiddle around with strip-chart recorders, scissors and weighing of clipped peaks. My first HPLC was a Spectra Physics SP8000 (nice: ternary gradient, column oven, and roughly twenty 12" circuit boards making up the data system). We had one of these HP integrators connected to a GC as well. Both printed ‘integration marks’ on the chromatogram – no baseline. Theoretically it was possible to change the settings and look at new marks, change again, and get stuck in something like:
Anew = Aold × Hnew / Hold . Voilà!I think the first systems where you could actually see the baseline on screen were LDC/Milton Roy’s CCM and the Altex Scientific 324 introduced in the early 1980s. Microcassettes! Proprietary BASIC!! Moving around the chromatogram by means of arrow-keys (the mouse wasn’t invented yet…)!!! ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-07-31 01:46 (5400 d 07:28 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5704 Views: 10,520 |
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Hi, ❝ Let’s have a look how peak integration in chromatography is performed. ...and how data are captured electronically: Data acquisition is typically done on a voltage range (e.g. 0 - 5 mV); data acquisition hardware has a property related to resolution that is measured in bits. The number of bits determines the minimum change in voltage that can be detected. For example, an 8-bit data acquisition system splits the capture range into 28 = 256 units each having the dimension of the smallest theoretically detecable amount of voltage change; if the capture range is 0-5 mV then the smalles change in voltage that can be detected is 5 mV/256 = 0.0195 mV (corresponding in theory1 to the least significant bit, LSB). Practical proof of the presence of an LSB: Take any captured chromatogram and enlarge any portion of it with your software. A piece of baseline is fine for this purpose. Superficially it looks like a flat line with noise. Enlarge even more and sooner or later a distinct saw-tooth like pattern becomes evident. The values that are captured jump between discrete levels - these levels represent the LSB. The consequence of it all is that for small peaks, the LSB can in some cases be of "signficiant" magnitude. Conversely, as peaks get larger, the digital signal can for all practical purposes be considered continuous. Most software peak detection Al Gore Rhytms are based on such an assumption, mainly because it is terribly difficult to write anything meaningful that is based on a signal that makes quantum leaps, and if such software would be functional noone would be able to tell how small a peak should be before algo1 should be used in stead of algo2 in a given run. And people would prolly start wars when discussing the same issue between runs. And some intelligence agency would prolly want that algo and prevent it from being published if it became a reality. As computers and data acquisition boards get better (more bits!) the significance (no pun intended) of the LSB is in practice slowly disappearing, fortunately. But it is still in 2010 A.D. showing its ugly face with a few drugs out there. I agree very much with the essense of HS' post: Common sense and human eyeballing is better by a large factor than any detection algo. Best regards EM 1: Real life is cruel. The LSB is never as "good" as in this theory due to factors like electronic noise, voltage drift and more. A 16 bit system is often only 14-15 bit in practice. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-07-30 22:24 (5400 d 10:50 ago) @ sagark Posting: # 5703 Views: 10,780 |
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![]() a picture tells more than a thousand words. Following my previous post – which was a little bit theoretical – let’s look at an example (not from the last century; I received it a couple of days ago): This chromatogram shows the low CC standard of a chiral separation of drug X; first peak is the (inactive) d-enantiomer and second the (active) l-enantiomer. IMHO the analyst made a couple of mistakes…
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
sagark ☆ India, 2010-07-31 14:57 (5399 d 18:17 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5705 Views: 10,478 |
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Dear members, Thank you very much for your detailed explanations. Aspects for integration are much clear for me. Dear HS, in the example you mentioned, can we say that the method was not properly developed. Ideally one would have expected a method which separates the RT of the two enantiomers by a consideration time to minimise overlapping. You said the first peak was not integrated at all. Does that mean the separation was achieved but not quantification of the first peak isomer was achieved? Please guide Sagar |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-08-01 04:09 (5399 d 05:05 ago) @ sagark Posting: # 5706 Views: 10,453 |
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![]() ❝ […] in the example you mentioned, can we say that the method was not properly developed. Ideally one would have expected a method which separates the RT of the two enantiomers by aconsideration time to minimise overlapping. Especially for a chiral method I would say that peaks were sufficiently separated. Pharmacopoeias (like USP) call for a chromatographic resolution Rs of ≥1.5, whilst FDA (Reviewer Guidance - Validation of Chromatographic Methods, Nov 1994) recommends an Rs >2 (see also this post). At the right is the chromatogram of a high aqueous standard, showing a resolution of ≈2.5. ❝ You said the first peak was not integrated at all. Yes; IMHO that’s a flaw in the integration method. ❝ Does that mean the separation was achieved but not quantification of the first peak isomer was achieved? Exactly. He excluded the first peak. Therefore even for the aqueous standard with a perfect baseline the area of the second enantiomer is systematically too low. That’s why I stated in my previous post: ❝ ❝ • Even if the second peak would have been correctly ❝ ❝ No big deal for this particular method (BE of one the second enantiomer to the racemate; no in vivo interconversion expected), since all chromatograms are evaluated in the same way. But think about another drug where enantiomers are interconverted. The ratio of the enantiomers will not be the same in subject’s samples compared to CCs and QCs. Furthermore the ratio will change within the time profile… Only the perpendicular drop integration (▬▬) in my first example will give correct results. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-08-12 22:11 (5387 d 11:03 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5774 Views: 10,396 |
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Dear all, I played around with the last example. Since I had no access to the peak slices, I fired up SigmaSCAN Pro 5 to extract the chromatogram from the report. Next I used PeakFIT 4.12 with the EMG (exponentially modified Gaussian) model to deal with tailing peaks: ![]() Interesting results. The tangential integration method of the original chromatogram (red line) overestimates the tailing of the first peak. The system has no other choice, because the baseline is established with the end of the second peak. The enantiomeric ratio is given with 54.2%/45.8%. The perpendicular drop at the valley (blue line) would give a ratio of 51.7%/48.3%. If we calculate the areas of EMG-fitted peaks we get 52.0%/48.0%. Assuming a theoretical ratio of 50%/50% for the racemate, we get biases of 8.35%, 3.39%, and 4.01% for the three methods (since I don’t know the enantiomeric purity of the standard, this claim is rather specultive). But it’s clear, that the tangential integration performs worst and should be avoided. Unfortunatelly no (!!) current commercial CDS allows peak fitting. Merck/Hitachi’s mid-1990s D-7000 HPLC system manager (HSM v4.1) allowed deconvolution of two merged peaks based on the EMG model. Hillebrand* showed for a large combination of parameters (resolution, tailing, theoretical ratios of merged peaks, noise) that both the HSM and PeakFIT gave unbiased results in all cases, whereas all conventional integration methods performed worse in all cases. Though SigmaFIT is able to import AIA chromatography files, it’s unclear whether it’s application would be acceptable in a regulated environment. A close-up of the intersection is given below: ![]()
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-08-13 01:14 (5387 d 08:00 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5775 Views: 10,270 |
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Hi HS, interesting stuff - I'd love to be a programmer making new ways to deal with this. I find your example quite informative, thanks for posting it. Let me ask a broad question here, in relation to one of your points: ❝ But it’s clear, that the tangential integration performs worst and should be avoided. It is clear that in this case the Tangential Method (TM) gives a relatively large error on a peak estimate. However, for BE purposes this might or might not be a worry since we are interested in T/R. T and R could in principle be "a lot wrong" as long as we have some trust in T/R itself; this is implicitly how it works for e.g. AUC with the noncomp. model, typically with over-estimated area before the top and under-estimated thereafter. We just pray that the error we introduce on AUC(T) is percentually the same as on AUC(R). When the true T/R is not 1 one could argue that there could (I am not saying there is) be an issue, regardless of whether we talk chromatograms or AUCs. I am not aware of this issue being discussed anywhere in the scientific literature, and the bioanalysts I have asked about it also don't have any information. From your example, I would think that above all that the problem with TM is likely to be bigger if we use it in studies to characterise for example the half-life of a new chemical entity or similar. Let me hear your or anyone elses thoughts, please. Finally, I solemnly promise I will not make a lengthy post ever again until next time. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-08-13 15:43 (5386 d 17:32 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 5780 Views: 10,383 |
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Hi ElMaestro! ❝ I'd love to be a programmer making new ways to deal with this. Well, might be nice homework. But PeakFIT comes for just 600$... ❝ Let me ask a broad question here, in relation to one of your points: ❝ ❝ When the true T/R is not 1 one could argue that there could (I am not saying there is) be an issue, regardless of whether we talk chromatograms or AUCs. ![]() ❝ I am not aware of this issue being discussed anywhere in the scientific literature, and the bioanalysts I have asked about it also don't have any information. Well this thread started with the issue of manual integration. In my experience analysts are so scared about findings in an inspection, that they (erroneously) believe manual integration is forbidden data manipulation.* Remember my first example (same study, but low QC sample). Here it is not a question of “perpendicular, tangential, exponential skimmed” integration but simply wrong integration. At T/R=1 of course it would mean out, but for QCs it may lead to rejection - or false acceptance – of a batch. IMHO, bioanalysts should concentrate more on the basics of data evaluation in chromatography rather than blindly accept the results of a silicon-brain. The separation in my example was OK (Rs 2.5) and the tailing pretty good for a chiral method. There is an abundance of literature on the EMG-method. Only analysts can force manufacturers of CDSs to implement better algorithms. ❝ From your example, I would think that above all that the problem with TM is likely to be bigger if we use it in studies to characterise for example the half-life of a new chemical entity or similar. Yes, if you consider individual samples. But the issue of batch acceptance/rejection is applicable to all studies. ❝ Finally, I solemnly promise I will not make a lengthy post ever again until next time. Same with me.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
keshav khude ☆ 2010-08-13 11:11 (5386 d 22:03 ago) @ sagark Posting: # 5777 Views: 10,244 |
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Dear Sagar, Manual integration is required only particular chromatogram/individual sample id during the batch integration, if you are maintaining proper documentation for initial integration and reintegration with proper reason and same to reflected in respective SOP, so it is accepted by any auditor. Thanks, Keshav D.Khude Edit: Full quote removed. Please delete anything from the text of the original poster which is not necessary in understanding your answer; see also this post! [Ohlbe] |