AB ☆ India, 2012-02-08 09:21 (4826 d 01:41 ago) Posting: # 8069 Views: 23,154 |
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Dear All, Is there any possibility to get the CI within 80-125 limits if the ISCV of reference & also the ISCV obtained form both test & Ref are approximately 47% in a full replicate ref scale approach (for EMA)? Thanks, AB Edit: Category changed. [Helmut] — Regards, AB |
drgunasakaran1 ★★ ![]() 2012-02-08 09:44 (4826 d 01:18 ago) @ AB Posting: # 8070 Views: 21,482 |
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Very very less chance to have that possibility. You can widen the lower limit around 72.15% and upper limit to 138.59% if the ISCV% is around 45% for EMA submission in case of Replicate design. — Dr Gunasakaran Sambandan MD Disclaimer: The replies/posts are my personal opinions, and they do not represent my company's views on the same. LinkedIn |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2012-02-08 10:47 (4826 d 00:16 ago) @ AB Posting: # 8071 Views: 21,437 |
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Dear AB, if your point estimator is ok (i.e. in the range 0.95 ... 1.0526) a sample size estimation with your ISCV and a full replicate design (2-sequence-4-period) gives (using R with package PowerTOST) library(PowerTOST) Thus the chance with a feasible sample size is greater then anticipated by my previous speaker above ![]() But the question remains: Why do you resist in using the 80-125% acceptance range also the EMA allows you a widening ![]() — Regards, Detlew |
AB ☆ India, 2012-02-08 12:40 (4825 d 22:23 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 8075 Views: 21,452 |
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Dear d_labes & drgunasakaran Thanks for Quick response. The data provided is of Cmax from the study. PE is 100 and the number of subjects completed in the study were 70, the resulting CI was well within 80-125 with ISCV of 47%. could i suspect something wrong went in analysis? on the other hand if every thing was correct why do we need widening of CI? — Regards, AB |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2012-02-08 14:37 (4825 d 20:25 ago) @ AB Posting: # 8077 Views: 21,505 |
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Dear AB! ❝ PE is 100 and the number of subjects completed in the study were 70, the resulting CI was well within 80-125 with ISCV of 47%. ❝ could i suspect something wrong went in analysis? I’m not a friend of post-hoc power calculations, but your result is not surprising: library(PowerTOST) According to Endrényi & Tóthfalusi, Table A2 (see there), you would have needed only 25 subjects (50% CV, PE 1.00) to show BE with 90% power. ❝ on the other hand if every thing was correct why do we need widening of CI? You should follow the protocol. See the GL Section 4.1.10: The request for widened interval must be prospectively specified in the protocol.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2012-02-08 15:18 (4825 d 19:45 ago) @ AB Posting: # 8079 Views: 21,495 |
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Dear AB ❝ The data provided is of Cmax from the study. ❝ PE is 100 and the number of subjects completed in the study were 70, the resulting CI was well within 80-125 with ISCV of 47%. ❝ could i suspect something wrong went in analysis? See this post for a (simple) formula to use for the 90% CI in case of a fully replicate design. The standard error s in this post is obtained via s=sqrt(log(CV*CV+1)) , CV as ratio, not percent.Your givings thus should result in CI = 91.56 ... 109.22% If the exact result you have is reasonable near this result (within the accuracy of the givings) you don't have to be afraid. All went right in your analysis ![]() ❝ on the other hand if every thing was correct why do we need widening of CI? You have obtained your result with an extraordinary high number of subjects. At least extraordinary high within the context of BE studies, especially considering the replicate design ![]() ![]() The widening of the acceptance range in case of ISCV >30% (of reference) has the purpose of avoiding such a high numbers of subjects under study. See this recent thread for sample size tables for scaled average bioequivalence, including the EMA and the FDA analysis methods. These tables give you a necessary sample size of N=20 for the EMA evaluation, assuming target power = 80%, GMR=1 and an ISCV=50% (Table A2 of the paper). Even if you follow the recommendation of the two Laszlo's and assume a GMR=0.90 the sample size necessary is N=28. Thus you could have saved your sponsor quite a lot of money. But on the other hand your company did earn lesser money ![]() Moreover you could had prevented your volunteers from a lot of blood losses (Someone may call your study unethically). But on the other hand they were of course poorer of the volunteer fee ![]() One's owl is another one's nightingale. Sorry. Seen just now after submitting that some points were doubled with Helmut. — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2012-02-08 15:31 (4825 d 19:31 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 8080 Views: 21,725 |
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Dear Detlew! ❝ I had seldom seen such a high number of subjects in BE studies during my over 30 years career See Boehringer’s world record (?): 180 subjects, full replicate. ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2012-02-08 17:16 (4825 d 17:46 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 8081 Views: 21,341 |
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Dear Helmut! ❝ See Boehringer’s world record (?): 180 subjects, full replicate. It must be a drug from which the survival of mankind is dependent! Or highly profitable? — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2012-02-08 17:24 (4825 d 17:39 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 8082 Views: 21,441 |
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Dear Detlew! ❝ It must be a drug from which the survival of mankind is dependent! Or highly profitable? Dabigatran? Guess! — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
AB ☆ India, 2012-02-08 17:48 (4825 d 17:15 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 8083 Views: 21,384 |
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Dear Detlew and Helmut, Many thanks for making it very clear. — Regards, AB |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2015-09-23 22:43 (3502 d 13:20 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 15462 Views: 18,938 |
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Hi Helmut, world record (?): 180 subjects, full replicate. ![]() What would the sample size be if it was run as a 2-way study ![]() ![]() ![]() John |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2015-09-23 23:57 (3502 d 12:05 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 15463 Views: 18,968 |
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Hi John, ❝ world record (?): 180 subjects, full replicate. ❝ ❝ What would the sample size be if it was run as a 2-way study IIRC what the guy planning the study told me, B-I expected a high GMR. Don’t forget that the study was designed for FDA’s RSABE. For a GMR of 1.2, CV 0.55, and 85% power that would transfer into 172 subjects. Add an expected droput-rate of 5% and you end up with 180 dosed. No scaling in a 2×2×2 study. Therefore, 2,282 subjects… To fulfill the FDA’s new requirements (4-period full replicate, assuming CVT=CVR) according to Detlew’s new function sampleN.HVNTID() in the pre-release PowerTOST 1.3-01 1,146 subjects. Forget it.If dabigatran would be classified by the EMA as an NTID, 90.00–111.11% would be required. Sample size estimation not possible for a PE of 1.2. Anyhow, the PEs in the “world record” study were >1.25. Not even n=∞ would have helped – regardless which fancy method ever one would apply. This one on mesalamine was a 2×2×4 in 238 subjects. AFAIK, the current world record is held by another innovator, Pfizer (two fully replicated 4-period studies in hundreds [sic] of subjects; personal communication Scott Patterson). No idea which Wonder-Pill economically justified such studies. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |