The Outlaw Torn ★ Europe, 2012-11-20 08:56 (4468 d 01:44 ago) Posting: # 9556 Views: 12,871 |
|
Goodmorning everyone, I have a question. Let's say Cmax for the test product is somewhat lower than for the reference product, but the confidence intervals are well within the acceptance criteria of 80 to 125% though it does not include unity (ie. 85 to 97). Let's say that during a deficiency letter an assessor claims the difference is significant. On what basis can they claim this significant difference (our client believes it is because the F-factor/test for treatment is significant—is this an appropriate test to use in this instance and can someone explain what it means in this context)? And how would one go about responding to such a claim (of significance)? Personally, I'm focusing on the study results being compliant with the guideline requirements (Cmax is within the confidence intervals). Since this is the case, whatever difference in Cmax between test and reference products are non-significant. Is this correct? Comments? Thank you in advance for any feedback you can provide. Category changed. [Helmut] |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2012-11-20 09:17 (4468 d 01:23 ago) @ The Outlaw Torn Posting: # 9558 Views: 11,834 |
|
Hi Outlaw, a 90% CI that doesn't spanover 1.0 should generally be no problem. It means that Test and Ref differ but so be it; all products differ and sometimes we can even detect it as a significant treatment effect as in your case. The primary equivalence criterion is still just a 90% CI within the acceptance range. Statistically different isn't necessarily clinically relevant. If there is a concern of this type from the assessor's side then
❝ Personally, I'm focusing on the study results being compliant with the guideline requirements (Cmax is within the confidence intervals). Since this is the case, whatever difference in Cmax between test and reference products are non-significant. Is this correct? Comments? I support this view in principle. But of course one should note that a 90% CI within 0.8-1.25 is a general acceptance principle but not guaranteed to be applicable to each and every drug. If anyone -such as an assessor- would have considerations about two products being too different or the classical criterion for BE is inadequate for a specific product, then a much more obvious solution would be for the assessor to suggest a narrower 90% CI acceptance range. Finally, as a curiosity note that in Denmark they still have an odd clause requiring 1.0 being part of the 90% CI. As mentioned above I doubt very much that they will be able to defend this principle in a referral. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
The Outlaw Torn ★ Europe, 2012-11-20 09:55 (4468 d 00:45 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 9559 Views: 11,800 |
|
Hi ElMaestro, ❝ a 90% CI that doesn't spanover 1.0 should generally be no problem. It means that Test and Ref differ but so be it; all products differ and sometimes we can even detect it as a significant treatment effect as in your case. The primary equivalence criterion is still just a 90% CI within the acceptance range. Statistically different isn't necessarily clinically relevant. This is my take on it as well and how I plan on pushing it (gently). What do you mean by "quality-focused"? Thank you for your feedback. |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2012-11-20 10:04 (4468 d 00:36 ago) @ The Outlaw Torn Posting: # 9560 Views: 11,829 |
|
Hi, ❝ This is my take on it as well and how I plan on pushing it (gently). What do you mean by "quality-focused"? I mean I would argue along the classical lines of BE and avoid too much speculation into clinics. This is because BE is more and more viewed as a quality issue rather than a clinical issue. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2012-11-20 21:10 (4467 d 13:30 ago) @ The Outlaw Torn Posting: # 9563 Views: 11,381 |
|
Hi Torn! Adding to what ElMaestro said my two cents: Maybe you can point out (in a polite way I’m not an expert in) that if one increases the sample size sooner or later any study will show a significant difference if the ratio is not exactly (!) 1. See this post. I don’t know your CV and sample size, but the sponsor cannot be blamed to have performed a study in “too” many subjects (I would avoid the term overpowered). Horatio: He waxes desperate with imagination. Marcellus: Let’s follow. ’Tis not fit thus to obey him. Horatio: Have after. To what issue will this come? Marcellus: Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Horatio: Heaven will direct it. Marcellus: Nay, let’s follow him. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
The Outlaw Torn ★ Europe, 2012-11-21 08:52 (4467 d 01:48 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 9564 Views: 10,746 |
|
❝ Adding to what ElMaestro said my two cents: Maybe you can point out (in a polite way I’m not an expert in) that if one increases the sample size sooner or later any study will show a significant difference if the ratio is not exactly (!) 1. See this post. I don’t know your CV and sample size, but the sponsor cannot be blamed to have performed a study in “too” many subjects (I would avoid the term overpowered). In turns out the client and assessor haven't mentioned anything specific about the CI not overlapping with unity. What the client focused on was the F-test for treatment effect (which, I guess, comes into play if the study was overpowered). I'll take a look at the assumptions in the sample size estimation and take it from there. Thanks for the lead. |
The Outlaw Torn ★ Europe, 2012-11-22 11:55 (4465 d 22:45 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 9567 Views: 9,646 |
|
Goodmorning, ❝ Adding to what ElMaestro said my two cents: Maybe you can point out (in a polite way I’m not an expert in) that if one increases the sample size sooner or later any study will show a significant difference if the ratio is not exactly (!) 1. See this post. I don’t know your CV and sample size, but the sponsor cannot be blamed to have performed a study in “too” many subjects (I would avoid the term overpowered). Just as a follow-up, would it be fair to twist a bit what you said and express it this way: "...that if one increases the sample size sooner or later any study will show a significant treatment difference if the ratio is not exactly one." Or is that too much wishful thinking? The reason I'm asking is that the significant treatment effect is what seems to bother the assessor and not the fact that the ratio doesn't include unity (maybe both are linked statistically, but that's beyond my understanding). Thank you. |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2012-11-22 14:35 (4465 d 20:05 ago) @ The Outlaw Torn Posting: # 9571 Views: 10,022 |
|
Hi Torn! ❝ Just as a follow-up, would it be fair to twist a bit what you said and express it this way: "...that if one increases the sample size sooner or later any study will show a significant treatment difference if the ratio is not exactly one." Or is that too much wishful thinking? For a suitable wording ask ElMaestro. ![]() I once had a study with the minimum sample size of 12 and very low variability (~5%). As expected the study passed in full glory, but with a significant treatment effect. Deficiency letter. Reply similar to the one above. I also said that the result was expected because the sample size for even 90% power would be just four (4!)… The assessor wanted to see bootstrapped studies with a sample size of six as a sensitivity analysis. Guess the outcome. ❝ The reason I'm asking is that the significant treatment effect is what seems to bother the assessor and not the fact that the ratio doesn't include unity (maybe both are linked statistically, but that's beyond my understanding). Let’s look at my example again: ![]() A significant treatment effect will show up in all studies where the confidence interval does not include unity. Keeping the CV and ratio constant all studies with sample sizes <48 will show no significant treatment effect (CI includes 100%). Any sample size ≥48 will show a significant treatment effect. Different ratios will shift the curves. If the ratio was lower than the 95% in the example, a significant effect will show up earlier (the upper CI intersects 100% at a smaller sample size). There are two possibilities for a significant treatment effect to show up:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
The Outlaw Torn ★ Europe, 2012-11-23 15:47 (4464 d 18:53 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 9574 Views: 9,574 |
|
Howdy Helmut, ❝ The assessor wanted to see bootstrapped studies with a sample size of six as a sensitivity analysis. Guess the outcome. I can imagine a few scenarios where boot straps are involved, but let's not go there! ❝ A significant treatment effect will show up in all studies where the confidence interval does not include unity.❝ Should have been obvious, but this was an "ah ha" moment for me. ❝ There are two possibilities for a significant treatment effect to show up... And the education continues. That clears up a few thoughts I had. Thank you for all your efforts and feedback. Outlaw. |
BEQool ★ 2025-01-31 14:12 (12 d 20:28 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24355 Views: 408 |
|
Hello! ❝ A significant treatment effect will show up in all studies where the confidence interval does not include unity. Is this always true? Or better, in which cases this isnt true? What could be the reason? Namely I saw a case with lower limit of 90% CI of 102.3% and p-value for treatment effect of 0.055. So based on 90% CI, treatment effect should be significant but here it isnt ![]() BEQool |
kumarnaidu ★ Mumbai, India, 2013-01-31 08:48 (4396 d 01:52 ago) (edited on 2013-01-31 10:19) @ The Outlaw Torn Posting: # 9933 Views: 9,525 |
|
Hello everyone In the below given article (in red) there is a statement for sample size calculation "Sample size was calculated using the formula developed by Marzo and Balant, using Cmax CVs of 38% for TDF and of 24% for 3TC, according to literature". Can anybody please tell me what is Marzo and Balant method for sample size calculation ![]() Single-Dose Bioequivalence of a New Fixed-Dose Combination Tablet Containing Tenofovir Disoproxil Fumarate and Lamivudine Feleder Ethel C, Yerino Gustavo A, Halabe Emilia K, Carla Serebrinsky, Soledad Gonzalez and Zini Elvira Thanks in advance...... Edit: Full quote removed. Please delete everything from the text of the original poster which is not necessary in understanding your answer; see also this post! [Ohlbe] Edit: See doi:10.4172/jbb.1000093. [Helmut] — Kumar Naidu |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2013-01-31 11:05 (4395 d 23:35 ago) @ kumarnaidu Posting: # 9934 Views: 10,121 |
|
Dear kumarnaidu, the Marzo/Balant1) formula is one of the numerous approximate quick calculation formulas for estimating the sample size which arose in the good old ages ![]() The formula is very simple: n = 392 * CV^2 It was derived under the following prerequisites from a large sample approximation of the number of subjects (see 2)): log-normal data, 2x2 crossover design, power = 0.8, 'true' ratio T/R=1, intra-subject variance ~ CV^2. Especially the restriction to T/R = 1 makes the formula nowadays obsolete. These days sample size estimations usually uses a 'true' T/R of 0.95 or something similar. A slightly better approximation for higher CV's is obtained by using n = 392 * se^2 with se^2 = log(CV^2 + 1) (marzo2).Here a comparison of the exact results (PowerTOST) and the Marzo/Balant formula(s): CV exact marzo marzo2 uneven numbers in marzo, marzo2 rounded to next even ↓ too low, ↑ too high In the current modern times there is no need for such formulas and they shouldn't be used any longer. Just fire up R-project and use the PowerTOST-package for your sample size estimation ![]() 1)Marzo, A.; Balant, L. P. "Bioequivalence: an updated reappraisal addressed to applications o interchangeable multi-sorce pharmaceutical products" Arzneim. – Forsch./Drug Res., Aulendorf, v. 45, n.2, p. 109-115, 1995 2) Steven A. Julious "Sample Sizes for Clinical Trials" Chapman & Hall/CRC, Boca Raton, 2010 Chapter 7.2.1.2 — Regards, Detlew |
kumarnaidu ★ Mumbai, India, 2013-01-31 11:54 (4395 d 22:46 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 9935 Views: 9,089 |
|
Thank a lot Detlew....... ![]() Edit: Full quote removed. Please delete everything from the text of the original poster which is not necessary in understanding your answer; see also this post! [Ohlbe] — Kumar Naidu |
kumarnaidu ★ Mumbai, India, 2013-02-04 06:48 (4392 d 03:52 ago) @ kumarnaidu Posting: # 9952 Views: 9,019 |
|
Hi.......... Can we give same justification for Parallel design. ![]() Thank a lot Detlew....... ![]() Edit: Full quote removed. Please delete everything from the text of the original poster which is not necessary in understanding your answer; see also this post! [Helmut] — Kumar Naidu |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2013-02-04 09:44 (4392 d 00:56 ago) @ kumarnaidu Posting: # 9955 Views: 9,025 |
|
Hi kumar ❝ Can we give same justification for Parallel design. Quite simply: No. The parallel design has different design characteristics (degrees of freedom, design constant ...). Thus an analogous formula for that design must have a different numeric factor. Figure out it by yourself if you feel the need (using the "large sample" formulas given in Julious). This should be not such hard for you as Statistician ![]() Just to cite myself: "In the current modern times there is no need for such formulas and they shouldn't be used any longer." — Regards, Detlew |