Charl
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2007-07-16 16:52
(6502 d 12:33 ago)

Posting: # 896
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 Re-analysis [Bioanalytics]

Hi, can any one guide me to any reference where there is any note for doing re-analysis for authentic samples. is there any specifications for the amount to be re-analyszed?
thanks
Helmut
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Vienna, Austria,
2007-07-16 19:38
(6502 d 09:48 ago)

@ Charl
Posting: # 897
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 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear Charl!

❝ Hi, can any one guide me to any reference where there is any note for doing re-analysis for authentic samples.


I guess you are talking about 'Incurred Sample Re-analysis' (is this really English?) :-D

Viswanathan CT, Bansal S, Booth B, DeStefano AJ, Rose MJ, Sailstad J, Shah VP, Skelly JP, Swann PG, and R Weiner
Workshop/Conference Report - Quantitative Bioanalytical Methods Validation and Implementation: Best Practices for Chromatographic and Ligand Binding Assays
The AAPS Journal 2007; 9 (1) Article 4, E30-E42
(currently available at http://www.aapsj.org/articles/aapsj0901/aapsj0901004/aapsj0901004.pdf)

❝ is there any specifications for the amount to be re-analyszed?


At least not in the cited reference.
Canada had a requirement of 15% for many years; but this requirement was removed in 2003.

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Ohlbe
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France,
2007-07-17 12:16
(6501 d 17:09 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 898
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 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear Charl and HS,

❝ 'Incurred Sample Re-analysis' (is this really English?) :-D


US English, it seems :-P

I attended the AAPS/FDA workshop in Crystal City last year. FDA only stated that they wanted precision to be demonstrated on "incurred samples", not just on artificial, spiked samples. They declined to detail how they wanted it to be done, saying it was the responsibility of the people in the lab and of the sponsor, based on their best scientific jugement. Basically it seems this all comes from FDA findings during inspections of bioequivalence trials (at least at MDS in Canada, from the letters they have issued), but FDA just don't know exactly themselves how it should be done (said they don't have enough data at this stage) and how they will interpret the results :-D

A representative from Canada HPB was asked why they dropped the requirement for 15 % random reassay. The response was quite simple and straightforward: because they just didn't know what to do with the data and there was no established acceptance criteria :-D

Regards
Ohlbe
Helmut
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2007-07-17 15:01
(6501 d 14:25 ago)

@ Ohlbe
Posting: # 899
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 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear Ohlbe!

❝ ❝ 'Incurred Sample Re-analysis' (is this really English?) :-D

❝ US English, it seems :-P


I guess so; quoting Nick Holford at David Bourne’s PKPD-list:
“I have no opinion about ‘incurred samples’ – an expression which has no easily understandable meaning for me in the English language.”

❝ I attended the AAPS/FDA workshop in Crystal City last year.


Was it as ‘lively’ as the first Crystal City Conference (people shouting at each other…)?

❝ FDA only stated that they wanted precision to be demonstrated on "incurred samples", not just on artificial, spiked samples.


Nice, but what’s the use of it?
To be honest, I’m not interested in the precision of ‘real-world’ samples, but in their accuracy, which can’t be determined anyway – simply because we don’t know the true concentration.
It sounds a little bit hypocritical to me- just imagine the situation of a precise but inaccurate measurement, which will would satisfy the FDA, but yield in ‘rubbish’ data…

At least for bioequivalence studies analytical variability hardly matters at all; if you were able to demonstrate BE – despite an awful analytical method – all questions regarding analytics should subside!
In real life analytical variability is just negligible compared to biological variability (intra- and inter-subject).*

❝ They declined to detail how they wanted it to be done,...


:rotfl:

I want to start a little survey:
[ ] Yes: I want to waste precious samples to satisfy the FDA
[ ] No : I want to keep samples, in case I have to re-analyse them (invalid run, etc.)


  • Gaffney M. Variance Components in Comparative Bioavailability Studies. J Pharm Sci 1992;81(4):315–7. doi:10.1002/jps.2600810402.

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Ohlbe
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France,
2007-07-17 16:15
(6501 d 13:11 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 900
Views: 9,940
 

 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear HS,

❝ Was it as ‘lively’ as the first Crystal City Conference (people shouting at each other…)?


Well, I wasn't at the first conference so I can hardly compare... Let's say that they disagreed politely (well, quite actively too, when some FDA guys said they wanted long-term stability of the analyte in the samples to be re-demonstrated if a bioanalytical method was transferred from one site to another :lol2: )

❝ To be honest, I’m not interested in the precision of ‘real-world’ samples, but in their accuracy, which can’t be determinded anyway - simply because we don’t know the true concentration.

❝ It sounds a little bit hypocritical to me- just imagine the situation of a precise but inaccurate measurement, which will would satisfy the FDA, but yield in ‘rubbish’ data…


Actually the summary slides of the 2006 Crystal City meeting used the word "reproducibility" but my understanding is that FDA is concerned with both precision and accuracy. They apparently had some studies with huge (not just 20-30 %) differences between initial and repeated concentrations (e.g. page 2 of the December 2004 http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/2004/mdsuntitledltr.pdf Letter to MDS Canada. The letter mostly refers to contaminations, but apparently they also had other concerns (there or elsewhere)).

Regards
Ohlbe


Edit: FDA-link updated for new site structure. [Helmut]
Helmut
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2007-07-17 18:46
(6501 d 10:39 ago)

@ Ohlbe
Posting: # 901
Views: 11,226
 

 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear Ohlbe!

❝ ... when some FDA guys said they wanted long-term stability of the analyte in the samples to be re-demonstrated if a bioanalytical method was transferred from one site to another :lol2:


Do you know the waiter Manuel in the TV-series ‘Fawlty Towers’?
He would just heartily reply: ¿Qué?

❝ Actually the summary slides of the 2006 Crystal City meeting used the word "reproducibility" but my understanding is that FDA is concerned with both precision and accuracy. They apparently had some studies with huge (not just 20-30 %) differences between initial and repeated concentrations (e.g. page 2 of the December 2004 Letter to MDS Canada. The letter mostly refers to contaminations, but apparently they also had other concerns (there or elsewhere)).


OK, IUPAC defines reproducibility as:

The closeness of agreement between independent results obtained with the same method on identical test material but under different conditions (different operators, different apparatus, different laboratories and/or after different intervals of time). The measure of reproducibility is the standard deviation qualified with the term ‘reproducibility’ as reproducibility standard deviation. In some contexts reproducibility may be defined as the value below which the absolute difference between two single test results on identical material obtained under the above conditions, may be expected to lie with a specified probability. Note that a complete statement of reproducibility requires specification of the experimental conditions which differ.

So I’m still not getting FDA’s point. :ponder:
All – serious – labs have an SOP for re-analysis (including acceptance criteria) in place. What is FDA suggesting?
In order to set any internal rules for ‘incurred samples re-analysis reproducibility’ we would have to use some of these samples.
But when? Of course after the first study - otherwise we would not have any samples… :lol3:
The maximum time interval would be the validated long-term stability. Which sponsor would be willing to voluntarily give away his/her biosamples?
Even if we were able to establish some kind of acceptance criteria, IMHO it would lead to a lot of 'not reportable' results.

Let’s look at an artificial example:
1 (unknown) sample analysed in triplicates in three batches. In order to keep it simple, let’s apply the common rules for valid intermediate QCs (±15% accuracy, 15% precision, :blahblah:). Of course we don’t know the ‘true’ concentration; I just set it to 15/19.5/30 (‘true’, ‘true’ +30%, ‘true’ +100%). Don’t worry about the within-batch CVs; the given numbers were simply the first valid ones jumping out of my random generator…
            +------+------+------+
            |  # 1 |  # 2 |  # 3 |
+-----------+------+------+------+ 
|conc. calc.| 15.5 | 17.1 | 30.2 |
|           | 17.2 | 21.9 | 25.6 |
|           | 12.9 | 17.8 | 28.4 |
+-----------+------+------+------+
|mean       | 15.2 | 18.9 | 28.1 |
|SD         |  2.17|  2.59|  2.32|
|CV         | 14%  | 14%  |  8%  |
+-----------+------+------+------+

Now let’s look at the intra-batch variability (reproducibility according to IUPAC); we can’t talk about accuracy!
# 1 <-> # 2: CV 15%
# 1 <-> # 3: CV 42%
What limit should we suggest?

Many people’s SOPs right now (if there is insufficient volume for three analyses) end up with a ‘not reportable’ value if the deviation of second to first analysis is >30%.
We re-analyse values not for fun, but because we assume something has gone wrong (bad chromatography, equipment failure, …).

Whatever procedure one is using, looking only at single data points (at least in any type of PK study) would throw away all a priori information on the time course of concentrations.
Consequent concentrations are not independent! IMHO any re-analysis ignoring this fact is just some kind of bureaucracy, but definitely not science.
I always suggest to include two adjacent values, or – if the suspect values is the first/last one in a profile - two succeeding/preceding ones.

Another example. The second value was suspected for problems with internal standard addition, but only enough sample for one re-analysis was available.
+----+-------+-------+
|time|  # 1  |  # 2  |
+----+-------+------ +
|  1 |  78.7 |  82.4 |
|  2 | 341.2 |  85.5 |
|  4 |  51.3 |  53.7 |
+----+-------+-------+

If we only repeat a single value we would end up with no result; if we analyse three consequent samples, we have strong evidence for replacing the first result with 85.5.
OK, such an SOP needs a little bit of statistical background (actually accuracy + precision from the analytical method, total biological variability and some kind of ‘detection threshold’ are incorporated); but I think it’s worth it!

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Ohlbe
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France,
2007-07-18 00:43
(6501 d 04:42 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 902
Views: 10,234
 

 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

Dear HS,

❝ Even if we were able to establish some kind of acceptance criteria, IMHO it would lead to a lot of ‘not reportable’ results.


I think the idea would be rather to report the repeated result the way Canada used to request it: the first value obtained should be used for PK calculations, and there should be a table in the report showing the initial and repeat value for random repeats. Now the question is, what do you do with such a table ? :confused:

❝ Consequent concentrations are not independent! IMHO any re-analysis ignoring this fact is just some kind of bureaucracy, but definitely not science.

❝ I always suggest to include two adjacent values, or – if the suspect values is the first/last one in a profile – two succeeding/preceding ones.


I agree with you. We used to do this in a lab where I worked some years ago, but I can't remember seeing it done at any of the labs I have visited since.

Regards
Ohlbe
Helmut
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Vienna, Austria,
2007-07-18 04:49
(6501 d 00:36 ago)

@ Ohlbe
Posting: # 903
Views: 9,997
 

 Plausibility review?

Dear Ohlbe!

❝ I think the idea would be rather to report the repeated result the way Canada used to request it: the first value obtained should be used for PK calculations, and there should be a table in the report showing the initial and repeat value for random repeats.

❝ Now the question is, what do you do with such a table ? :confused:


Oh, things get clearer now!
This is the Canadian approach – the way we have interpreted and applied it for many years – without any actual use of the data afterwards.
We split the concentration range of the unknown samples in a such way, that the medians of the found concentrations were just about the three QCs-levels. Then we calculated the CV% of replicates within these three ranges.
We always simply looked at this table, waiting for some ghost to be released out from the lab-notebook explaining us what the difference means. Actually in thousands of samples there was no obvious difference at all (sometimes the CV was higher, sometimes lower; did not got any clue out from it).

❝ ❝ I always suggest to include two adjacent values, or - if the suspect values is the first/last one in a profile - two succeeding/preceding ones.


❝ I agree with you. We used to do this in a lab where I worked some years ago, but I can't remember seeing it done at any of the labs I have visited since.


I’m observing some decline in scientific standards. :thumb down:
I know only two labs any more following some basic plausibility assessments – of valid batches – before releasing their data.
IMHO the ‘lights on, nobody at home’-attitude becomes increasingly fashionable. Many analysts in recent years are so scared, that they forget (or never were taught about) basic scientific principles.
No, following SOPs is no warranty for anything (except getting a warm handshake from an inspector).
Sometimes I’m getting the impression, that all our validation efforts during the past 20 years – at least to some extent – are nothing more than a ‘ship painting activity’, both for regulators and the industry.
If we would be really and honestly interested in confirming our results, we should not spend a single cent in validation, but analyze all samples with a second method, which is entirely independent from the first one (different sample extraction, separation, detection principle).
I’m talking about a true experimentum crucis (let’s say a RIA instead of LC/MS), not this fiddling with robustness (RP8 instead of RP18, slight changes in mobile phase composition, blahblah).
I bet on seeing some fascinating results leaving SOP-driven validation maniacs just speechless… :surprised:

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Jaime_R
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Barcelona,
2007-07-19 12:41
(6499 d 16:45 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 910
Views: 9,840
 

 Incurred Sample Re-analysis

❝ ...the waiter Manuel [...] would just heartily reply: ¿Qué?


Wasn't he from Barcelona? :lol3:

Regards, Jaime
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