earlybird ☆ 2009-10-16 13:25 (5534 d 07:31 ago) Posting: # 4367 Views: 10,648 |
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Dear all, we are planning a two-stage Design according Method B, Diane Potvin. Does somebody know if the ANOVA statement has to be adapted? I.E. to add stage, stage-treatment interaction as fixed effects and subject nested within (stage x sequence) as random effect. Earlybird -- The answer: Please find solution on Page 9 of Potvin paper. Thanks to Berlin! earlybird Edit: I restored your original post – otherwise my reply might be confusing. [Helmut] |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2009-10-16 15:32 (5534 d 05:24 ago) @ earlybird Posting: # 4368 Views: 7,764 |
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Dear Earlybird! ❝ we are planning a two-stage Design according Method B, Diane Potvin. Method B = “Gürtel mit Hosenträgern”. SCNR; this is a German proverb for overweariness, which roughly translates into “waistbelt plus suspenders”. ❝ Does somebody know if the ANOVA statement has to be adapted? I.E. to add stage, stage-treatment interaction as fixed effects and subject nested within (stage × sequence) as random effect. At least if you proceed to the second stage (see the last page of the methods-section of Potvin’s paper). Just checked it in one of my studies (Method C, which was accepted by the BfArM) – difference in the CI was 0.15% (with/without effects)… However, even if you find significant effects, no poolability criteria are to be applied anyhow. If you have time, go and meet Diane Potvin in Ottawa. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_stat ☆ Slovenia, 2021-07-19 18:26 (1240 d 02:31 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22478 Views: 4,192 |
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Dear Helmut, I have a questions regarding analysis of two-stage Potvin C data, i.e. with regard to interaction stage*formulation that mentioned here: ❝ At least if you proceed to the second stage (see the last page of the methods-section of Potvin’s paper). Just checked it in one of my studies (Method C, which was accepted by the BfArM) – difference in the CI was 0.15% (with/without effects)… However, even if you find significant effects, no poolability criteria are to be applied anyhow. Are you aware of any literature or guidance that would suggest that poolability of stages still applies even in case of significant formulation*stage interaction? Thank you. Regards |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2021-07-19 19:22 (1240 d 01:34 ago) @ d_stat Posting: # 22479 Views: 4,404 |
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Hi d_stat, ❝ I have a questions regarding analysis of two-stage Potvin C data, i.e. with regard to interaction stage*formulation that mentioned here: ❝ ❝ Are you aware of any literature or guidance that would suggest that poolability of stages still applies even in case of significant formulation*stage interaction? I know only one1 stating A term for the stage should be included in the ANOVA model. However, the guideline does not clarify what the consequence should be if it is statistically significant. In principle, the data sets of both stages could not be combined. This statement lead to heated debates and a compromise in the Q&A document.2 Correct: A model which also includes a term for a formulation*stage interaction would give equal weight to the two stages, even if the number of subjects in each stage is very different. The results can be very misleading hence such a model is not considered acceptable. Furthermore, this model assumes that the formulation effect is truly different in each stage. If such an assumption were true there is no single formulation effect that can be applied to the general population, and the estimate from the study has no real meaning. Furthermore, none [sic] of the published methods contains a sequence(stage) term and a poolability criterion – combining is always allowed, even if a significant difference between stages is observed. BTW, the EMA’s modification of the model was shown to be irrelevant.3 Nowadays trying ‘Method C’ in Europe is a recipe for disaster. Even ‘Method B’ is risky. For – a bit outdated – background see here and there. If you nowadays aim at a 2×2×2 crossover, opt for the exact method – which controls the Type I Error in the strict sense (without requiring simulations).4 It is implemented in the -package Power2Stage since April 2018.Recently I faced a deficiency letter of a European agency where a study (passing BE with ‘Method B’ already in the first stage) was not accepted. Passed BE with the exact method as well. Passed even with Bonferroni’s 0.025. Oh dear! If you insist in a simulation-based method, consider a recent one.5
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_stat ☆ Slovenia, 2021-07-20 15:58 (1239 d 04:58 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22482 Views: 4,184 |
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Dear Helmut, Thank you for sharing these references and valuable comments. ❝ BTW, the EMA’s modification of the model was shown to be irrelevant. And if I deducted correctly, this helps that at least for FDA statistical model for TSD we can therefore omit interaction term and always combine stage data - as per Karalis model looks like this (1): Stage 1: ‘sequence’, ‘period’, ‘treatment’ and ‘subject(sequence)’ all fixed Stage 2 (EX): ‘sequence’, ‘treatment’, ‘stage’, ‘period(stage)’ and ‘subject(sequence × stage)’ all fixed - subject(sequence × stage) can also be random, since it produces same result. We will conduct study on multiple sites, so it adds complexity to the statistical models to be used: Stage 1 model: Sequence, Treatment, Site, Period (Site), Sequence*Site, Treatment*Site as fixed and Subject (Sequence*Site) as random Stage 2 model: Sequence, Treatment, Site, Stage, Period (Site*Stage), Sequence*Site, Treatment*Site, Stage*Site, Sequence*Site*Stage as fixed effects and Subject (Sequence*Site*Stage) as random - and based on (1) we can omit Treatment*Site*Stage term. ❝ It is implemented in the -package Indeed, we have used -package Power2Stage calculations when discussing approach with the FDA. These packages are lifesaver Regardless FDA still requires us to submit simulations on the validated model to justify our "specific" TSD approach. We still need to figure out what this means. ❝ I recently faced a deficiency letter of a European agency where a study (passing BE with ‘Method B’ already in the first stage) was not accepted. Passed BE with the exact method as well… But 'Method B' success in Stage 1 means your were already within the BE limits with even wider intervals (i.e. even smaller patient risk)! Cannot image why someone would reject this? Regards d_stat
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Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2021-07-20 23:52 (1238 d 21:04 ago) @ d_stat Posting: # 22483 Views: 4,383 |
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Hi d_stat, ❝ And if I deducted correctly, this helps that at least for FDA statistical model for TSD we can therefore omit interaction term and always combine stage data ❝ ❝ We will conduct study on multiple sites, so it adds complexity to the statistical models to be used: Confirmed. I had a ‘Type A’ meeting with the FDA last March. Agreed that the stupid site-by-treatment interaction can be dropped (as any pre-test it inflates the Type I Error1). The model was like yours: site, Of course, we proposed Maurer’s method. Note that there is no stage-term in the model because the interim (IA) and final analysis (FA) are evaluated separately (though the entire information is used in the FA by the repeated confidence intervals). In practice, run the mixed-model in both stages. You need the actual values of n1, CV1, GMR1, df1, and SEM1 and in the – optional – FA additionally CV2, GMR2, df2, and SEM2. ❝ ❝ It is implemented in the -package ❝ ❝ Indeed, we have used -package THX especially to Detlew Labes and Benjamin Lang. ❝ Regardless FDA still requires us to submit simulations on the validated model to justify our "specific" TSD approach. We still need to figure out what this means. An example (simulated data of a study which proceeds to the second stage):
Yes, we performed lots of simulations to show that our setup is reasonable… To give you an idea:
❝ ❝ […] a deficiency letter of a European agency where a study (passing BE with ‘Method B’ already in the first stage) was not accepted. Passed BE with the exact method as well… ❝ ❝ But 'Method B' success in Stage 1 means your were already within the BE limits with even wider intervals … Yep. ❝ … (i.e. even smaller patient risk)! Not necessarily. If you accept that ‘Method B’ is the only one (before Maurer’s paper I preferred ‘Method C’), the patient’s risk depends on n1 and CV1. In some cases (early stopping for success in the IA or in the FA with a high n2) it can be as low as αadj. In cases with a ~50% chance to proceed to stage 2 it can approach (though not exceed) nominal α. The maximum empiric TIE is generally observed at combinations of small n1 and low to moderate CV1.
❝ Cannot image why someone would reject this? See there. Just bullshit. The αadj = 0.0294 selected by Potvin et al. was arbitrary and not ‘derived’ from Pocock’s Group-Sequential Design for superiority [sic] testing (fixed N and IA at N/2). That’s a widespread misconception. It was no more than a lucky punch. It can be shown that αadj = 0.0301 controls the TIE as well. Comparison of the study: $$\small{\begin{array}{llrcc} \hline \text{Evaluation} & \text{PK metric} & \alpha_\textrm{adj} & CI & TIE_\textrm{ emp} \\ \hline \text{Method B} & C_\text{max} & 0.02940 & 91.54-124.84\% & 0.04478 \\ & AUC_\text{0-t} & 0.02940 & 95.38-118.06\% & 0.03017 \\ \text{modif. Method B} & C_\text{max} & 0.03010 & 91.62-124.72\% & 0.04573 \\ & AUC_\text{0-t} & 0.03010 & 91.62-117.99\% & 0.03080 \\ \text{Standard Comb. Test} & C_\text{max} & \sim0.03037 & 91.65-124.68\% & 0.04816 \\ & AUC_\text{0-t} & \sim0.03037 & 94.46-117.96\% & 0.03322 \\ \hline \end{array}}$$The confidence intervals with the modified ‘Method B’ are similar to the ones obtained by the Inverse Normal Combination Method / SCT, thus confirming that the original ‘Method B’ is already overly conservative. Even in ‘borderline’ cases like this one, the patient’s risk is not compromised if the study is evaluated by ‘Method B’. So what? Edit (a couple of hours later): Perhaps I’m guilty that the FDA asked you for simulations. Backstory: Originally we wanted to go with a variant of ‘Method C’ cause it’s slightly more powerful (esp. when you expect to stop in the IA with BE) and it is preferred by the FDA.2,3 However, that meant a lot of simulations to find a suitable αadj (implementing futility criteria which don’t compromise power are not that easy in simulation-based methods). Then I discovered a goody by authors of the FDA.4 Hey, they know Maurer’s paper! Was a game-changer. However, in the meeting I got the impression that nobody ever submitted such a protocol to the FDA. They were happy with what I presented though it ended in a nightmare. Study in patients, recruitment even in a country with 1.38 billion people difficult. Standard treatment regimen has to be followed and we expected 15% to be excluded due to pre-dose concentrations >5% Cmax. Our problem (loss of power, increased producer’s risk). Reply: ‘A washout of less then 5times t½ in any of the patients is not acceptable. Use a parallel design.’ Roughly 200 patients / arm. My client is still trying to recover from this shock.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_stat ☆ Slovenia, 2021-10-11 19:48 (1156 d 01:08 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22624 Views: 3,038 |
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Hi Helmut Thank you for sharing this additional information and insight into Maurer's method. ❝ Perhaps I’m guilty that the FDA asked you for simulations. Backstory: Originally we wanted to go with a variant of ‘Method C’ cause it’s slightly more powerful (esp. when you expect to stop in the IA with BE) and it is preferred by the FDA. Thus, we are sticking to Potvin. In order to do the validations for multiple-site nature of the study we are thinking of amending the code in the Power2Stage, since it's not part of package yet. Am I wrong to assume the amendment will be connected to decreasing of df for the error term with the number planned sites, or is there any other part that I am missing? Of course, the alternative is always to encourage (pray to) the holy trinity to update the package ❝ Our problem (loss of power, increased producer’s risk). Reply: ‘A washout of less then 5times t½ in any of the patients is not acceptable. Use a parallel design.’ Roughly 200 patients / arm. My client is still trying to recover from this shock. I can image the pain, since I understand the effort to execute such study. Best Regards, d_stat |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2021-10-12 13:27 (1155 d 07:29 ago) @ d_stat Posting: # 22625 Views: 3,004 |
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Hi d_stat, ❝ ❝ […] Originally we wanted to go with a variant of ‘Method C’ cause it’s slightly more powerful (esp. when you expect to stop in the IA with BE) and it is preferred by the FDA. ❝ ❝ Thus, we are sticking to Potvin. I wouldn’t. It might be that the site-model mentioned above is not stable. When I tried to add ‘sites’ to Potvin’s ‘Example 2’ (subjects 1–4: 1, 5–8: 2, 9–12: 3), Phoenix/WinNonlin showed me the finger. ❝ In order to do the validations for multiple-site nature of the study we are thinking of amending the code in the Power2Stage, since it's not part of package yet. Am I wrong to assume the amendment will be connected to decreasing of df for the error term with the number planned sites, … That’s correct. ❝ … or is there any other part that I am missing? You would also have to modify the degrees of freedom in the function to re-estimate the sample size ( sampsiz2.R) .❝ Of course, the alternative is always to encourage (pray to) the holy trinity to update the package Sorry. I'm afraid your prayers will not be answered. Maurer’s method as implemented in Power2Stage allows already to provide the degrees of freedom and the standard error of the means of a more complex model than the conventional 2×2×2 crossover.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |