yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2008-12-10 13:51 (5978 d 12:33 ago) (edited on 2008-12-11 11:17) Posting: # 2903 Views: 15,748 |
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dear all, We have built the outliers detection function with bear for BE study. As we released bear, this function (intra-subject residuals) has been suggested by some experts of this Forum. Here are some outputs generated from bear as preview before we officially release it within next few days. Before that, we will need your comments about this. Many thanks. ... We only show the part of Cmax here. The AUC0-t and AUC0-inf will also display when running bear. This will be included in the output file of 'ANOVA_stat.txt'. also we have some normal Q-Q plots for outliers detection purposes. ![]() ![]() We built these functions for bear mostly based on the textbook of Chow SH, Liu, JP. "Design and Analysis of Bioavailability and Bioequivalence Studies", Third Edition (Chapman & Hall/Crc Biostatistics Series). All the best, Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee College of Pharmacy, Kaohsiung Medical University, Kaohsiung, Taiwan 807 http://pkpd.kmu.edu.tw/bear |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2008-12-11 15:01 (5977 d 11:23 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 2906 Views: 13,446 |
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Dear Hsin-ya & Yung-jin, Wonderful! Some remarks: Which dataset are you using (I want to recalculate your results)? It maybe nice to flag values (i.e., give the subject's no.) in the QQ-plots which are outside ±2·sigma. Another suggestion would be a plot of ln(predicted) vs. studentized residuals. Such a plot allows the distinction between concordant outliers (T/R similar to the majority of subjects, but both T and R lower or higher than normal = parallel shift in plot) and discordant outliers (T or R lower or higher; suspected formulation failure or subject-by-formulation interaction). For an example see here. P.S. In your example pdf for v2.0.1 the labels for time and conc are mixed up (pages 30-32). A suggestion would be to scale both spaghetti-plots (pages 30-31) to the maximum concentration observed in the entire dataset (not within formulations). Then it's easier to compare both formulations visually. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2008-12-11 19:38 (5977 d 06:46 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 2907 Views: 13,296 |
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dear Helmut, Thanks you for your encouragement. ❝ Which dataset are you using (I want to recalculate your results)? The data we used to test "outlier function" was the one built-in in bear. So it should be easy to find out from previous version of bear (e.g., v2.0.1..) Plz wait just a few days after we release the new version. ❝ It maybe nice to flag values (i.e., give the subject's no.) in the QQ-plots which are outside +2sigma. Exactly. We have started adding this (subject labellings) into the normal probability plots (Q-Q plots) before I posted the previous message in this Forum. Indeed it will be easier to identify outliers if it can be done so. ❝ Another suggestion would be a plot of ln(predicted) vs. studentized residuals. Such a plot allows the distinction between (...) What a fantastic idea ![]() ![]() ![]() ❝ (...)v2.0.1 the labels for time and conc are mixed up (pages 30-32). A suggestion would be to scale both spaghetti-plots (pages 30-31)(...) Oops! it's funny mixed-up with labeling of x, y-axis. Yes, we will fix these soon. We want to thank you again for your valuable comments. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2008-12-11 22:28 (5977 d 03:56 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 2908 Views: 13,624 |
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Dear Yung-jin! ❝ ❝ Which dataset are you using (I want to recalculate your results)? ❝ The data we used to test "outlier function" was the one built-in in bear. So it should be easy to find out from previous version of bear (e.g., v2.0.1..) OK, checked lnCmax and could reproduce your model estimates and residuals in an old program I once wrote in STATISTICA. Running Shapiro-Wilk in R gives Shapiro-Wilk normality test in agreement with NCSS ( W 0.9332635 , p 0.338826 ), but different from your results (0.93758 0.3882 )?!BTW for log-transformed Cmax data the output reads:
Intra_subj. CV=100*sqrt(MSResidual)= 12.60176 % Acc. to D Hauschke et al.; Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther 32/7, 376-378 (1999) in the multiplicative model it should be
Intra_subj. CV=100*sqrt(exp(MSResidual)-1)= 12.65195 % ❝ ❝ Another suggestion would be a plot of ln(predicted) vs. studentized residuals. [...] ❝ What a fantastic idea! Oh, this is not my invention; I'm just a dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants. ❝ In your slides, you even provide much more information about outlier detection... Do I? ❝ ...than the textbook of Chow SH, Liu JP. "Design and Analysis of Bioavailability and Bioequivalence Studies", 3rd ed. (Chapman & Hall/Crc Biostatistics Series). Hhm, I have it on my desk just for a couple of days now. Disappointing that some typos are still uncorrected (Table 8.2.1, model value of subject 18 which was correct with 4.581 in ed. 1 is given with 4.851 in eds. 2/3). Another great method to check influential observations is Cook's distance, whereas personally I find the Tukey sum–difference plot and the Equal variance plot less convincing (especially in detecting outliers). See S-Plus-code in Chaper 7 of Millard and Krause (2001) by B Pikounis, TE Bradstreet and SP Millard here. ❝ [...] the great presentation you just made in India. Lucky audiences in that meeting. Yeah, it was great fun! ❝ Just no budget to go this time. ![]() ❝ We want to thank you again for your valuable comments. Welcome & thanks for your work and keeping the spirit of ![]() high. ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2008-12-14 01:49 (5975 d 00:35 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 2922 Views: 13,229 |
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dear Helmut, We used the data obtained from ch. 3 and ch. 6 of the textbook of Chow SH, Liu JP. "Design and Analysis of Bioavailability and Bioequivalence Studies", 3rd ed., Chapman & Hall, 2008, to test this part. The textbook provided SAS outputs for Shapiro-Wilk normality test which were compared with bear's outputs. We got totally the same results as the SAS outputs shown in the textbbok. That was the way we used to validate this part at the beginning. The results posted in the previous message were using the built-in dataset. However, we are very happy to check with this again as soon as possible, and will respond here. Thank you for your testing. ❝ [...] ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ in agreement with NCSS ( — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2008-12-15 12:52 (5973 d 13:32 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 2923 Views: 13,102 |
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Dear Helmut, dear Yung-jin, ❝ OK, checked lnCmax and could reproduce your model estimates and residuals in an old program I once wrote in STATISTICA. ❝ Running Shapiro-Wilk in R gives ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ in agreement with NCSS ( sorry, but I have the exactly the same results as Yung-jin (Bear) using the 'power to know' on the log-transformed Cmax data, intra-individual residuals from Proc GLM. Further I cannot confirm Helmuts results in NCSS. Using the intra-individual residuals above (3 decimals), which Helmut has confirmed as correct, my NCSS (NCSS 2004) gives: W=0.9371516 p=0.3830442 Do I miss something? — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2008-12-15 14:28 (5973 d 11:56 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 2924 Views: 13,198 |
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Dear D. Labes, dear Yung-jin, very strange. Below the intra-subject residuals to 5 decimals and the R-code:
intra <- c(-1.12602,+1.31764,+0.17871,+1.04384,-1.44654,-0.85471,-0.45394, Fidling around with the format options gives W = 0.933267, p-value = 0.3388638 My version of NCSS is 2001 (December 2, 2002):
Normality Test Section of intra What's going on here? ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2008-12-15 15:44 (5973 d 10:40 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 2925 Views: 13,189 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ Below the intra-subject residuals to 5 decimals and the ❝ R-code: ❝ intra <- ❝ c(-1.12602,+1.31764,+0.17871,+1.04384,-1.44654,-0.85471,-0.45394, ❝ -1.09608,+0.32237,+0.41330,+1.68203,-1.27489,+0.84339,+0.45090) Here are mine: intra-indiv. residuals / studentized residuals
subject residuals Student Red: different in sign to yours. Mine are identical to Yung-jin (see above). Shapiro-Wilk and other normality tests: The UNIVARIATE Procedure For using period 1 (or period 2) residuals see f.i. Chen et.al. A note on ANOVA assumptions and robust analysis for a cross-over study Stat. Med. 2002, 21, p1377-1386 BTW: Using your residuals (Studentized) I got your results. — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2008-12-16 05:02 (5972 d 21:22 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 2927 Views: 13,210 |
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Dear D. Labes, thanks a lot forcing me to polish up my rusty and limited knowledge of STATISTICA's scripting language! ![]() If I remember it correctly I struggled hours (days?) to reproduce Chow's & Liu's tables 8.2.1/8.2.3 (Clayton's famous data) from their first edition (1992). Although they mentioned period 1 throughout the text and in the table's headings, they used modeled period 2 values for subjects 10-18 (in sequence RT). After a lot of trial and error I gave up in order to continue with their examples. This explains the wrong sign. ![]() Correcting the calculation of sequence 1 everything is fine: resid Other stuff in NCSS (I used values rounded to 6 significant digits): resid ❝ For using period 1 (or period 2) residuals see f.i. ❝ Chen et.al. ❝ A note on ANOVA assumptions and robust analysis for a cross-over study ❝ Stat. Med. 2002, 21, p1377-1386 Thanks, I didn't know that one. ❝ BTW: Using your residuals (Studentized) I got your results. Sooner or later we will end up with true 'validation' of code - or our sloppy use of it... ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2008-12-16 09:34 (5972 d 16:50 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 2929 Views: 13,065 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ Sooner or later we will end up with true 'validation' of code - or our sloppy use of it... To quote a valued member of this forum: Never trust in any piece of software you haven't written yourself (and even then you should be cautious...) ![]() — Regards, Detlew |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2008-12-17 19:28 (5971 d 06:56 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 2934 Views: 13,217 |
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dear D. Labes and dear Helmut, I don't know that D. Labes has presented his finding (SAS runs) here. What we got was exactly the same as his. Regarding the intra- & inter-subject CV, we used to adopt calculations from the Canada Guideline which will be somewhat different from those of your suggestions (Hauschke's paper and also his great textbook). We decide to switch to your methods in the next version. Thank Helmut for your kindly testing with bear. And thanks to "the Power to know", D. Labes, for helping us. ![]() — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |