Shatha ☆ 2022-04-04 15:35 (1108 d 04:07 ago) Posting: # 22906 Views: 5,761 |
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Hello I have 2 treatments, 2 periods, crossover, multiple dose, steady state study. The last 3 pre-dose concentrations should be used for steady state verification for each subject in each period. I need your help to perform this verification using Helmert transformation method via SAS software, any specific SAS code? Thank you. Edit: Category changed; see also this post #1. [Helmut] |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2022-04-04 16:23 (1108 d 03:19 ago) @ Shatha Posting: # 22907 Views: 4,891 |
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Hi Shatha, ❝ I have 2 treatments, 2 periods, crossover, multiple dose, steady state study. ❝ The last 3 pre-dose concentrations should be used for steady state verification for each subject in each period. In statistics you can only try reject a properly stated null hypothesis – which is in your case what? Any test at level \(\small{\alpha}\) has an unavoidable false positive rate. Do you want to exclude \(\small{(100\times\alpha)\%}\) of subjects although they are in (pseudo) steady state? ❝ I need your help to perform this verification using Helmert transformation method … — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Shatha ☆ 2022-04-05 14:00 (1107 d 05:42 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22910 Views: 4,990 |
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❝ You can’t verify anything in science. ❝ In statistics you can only try reject a properly stated null hypothesis – which is in your case what? Any test at level \(\small{\alpha}\) has an unavoidable false positive rate. Do you want to exclude \(\small{(100\times\alpha)\%}\) of subjects although they are in (pseudo) steady state? I will not exclude any subjects from analysis, I just need to check achievement of steady state in compliance with EMA guideline. The guideline didn't specify the verification method. I have reviewed the comments raised for this guidance, the proposed changes in page 53 and page 54 include visual inspection of the last three pre-dose concentrations to verify steady state achievement and the feasibility to use the last 2 pre-dose concentrations and the Ctau instead of the last 3 pre-dose concentrations. EMA has evaluated the comments. They mentioned in page 4 that clarifications on steady state evaluation was included in the final guidance following stakeholder comments. I searched for this final guidance but I didn't find it, the published effective version is still the one came into effect in 2015. Is it feasible to verify steady state visually? ❝ ❝ I need your help to perform this verification using Helmert transformation method … ❝ ❝ Do you have a reference demonstrating its application in PK? Never came across this approach in 40+ years. See there why statistical tests are nonsense – essentially because we don’t have a proper null. No, I don't have references. It was suggested as the best method for steady state verification by a reviewer during protocol preparation two years ago and accordingly documented in the protocol. Thanks for your cooperation. |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2022-04-05 16:29 (1107 d 03:13 ago) @ Shatha Posting: # 22911 Views: 5,057 |
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Hi Shata, ❝ ❝ Any test at level \(\small{\alpha}\) has an unavoidable false positive rate. Do you want to exclude \(\small{(100\times\alpha)\%}\) of subjects although they are in (pseudo) steady state? ❝ ❝ I will not exclude any subjects from analysis, I just need to check achievement of steady state in compliance with EMA guideline. Under the premise of linear PK, the superposition principle holds, i.e., \(\small{AUC_{0-\infty}=AUC_{0-\tau}}\). In simple terms, we must compare bioavailabilites either after a single dose or in steady-state. If steady-state is not achieved, a comparison is not correct. What will you do if your ‘check’ fails? Since you don’t want to exclude subjects, would you throw the entire study into the waste container? ❝ The guideline didn't specify the verification method. Correct.
❝ I have reviewed the comments raised for this guidance, the proposed changes in page 53 and page 54 include visual inspection of the last three pre-dose concentrations to verify steady state achievement and the feasibility to use the last 2 pre-dose concentrations and the Ctau instead of the last 3 pre-dose concentrations. ❝ EMA has evaluated the comments. Yep. Note that though the overview of comments are dated with 17 October 2019 and according to the EMA’s website were published on 29 October 2019, the PDF was modified on 18 May 2020… On 30 April 20141 Jan Neuhauser of the Austrian agency AGES and member of the CHMP Pharmacokinetics Working Party announced that »the overview of comments will be published within the next two weeks«. 5½ years ≠ two weeks.![]() ❝ They mentioned in page 4 that clarifications on steady state evaluation was included in the final guidance following stakeholder comments. If fail to find that in page 4 and anywhere else. ❝ I searched for this final guidance but I didn't find it, the published effective version is still the one came into effect in 2015. That’s the final one. ❝ Is it feasible to verify steady state visually? As I wrote in the article: In 20132 members of the EMA’s Pharmacokinetics Working Party confirmed unanimously that a test is not expected by the agencies. ‘Demonstration of steady state’ should not be understood in the statistical sense. Instead, individual pre-dose concentrations should be reported together with spaghetti plots and plots of geometric means. In the discussion it became clear that common sense should prevail. In an earlier meeting3 nothing was mentioned at all.For 10+ years I’m presenting only summary tables, individual and spaghetti plots. All regulatory assessors were fine with that. ❝ ❝ ❝ Helmert transformation method … ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ Do you have a reference demonstrating its application in PK? ❝ ❝ No, I don't have references. It was suggested as the best method for steady state verification by a reviewer during protocol preparation two years ago and accordingly documented in the protocol. I can’t follow you here. You stated something in the protocol without knowing how to perform the method? Ask the reviewer for help and report back here. I’m curious.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Shatha ☆ 2022-04-06 13:38 (1106 d 06:03 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22912 Views: 4,811 |
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Hi Helmut ❝ What will you do if your ‘check’ fails? Since you don’t want to exclude subjects, would you throw the entire study into the waste container? So, if the test isn't clearly requested, then I don't have to do it in order to avoid any consequences, right? ❝ As I wrote in the article: In 20132 members of the EMA’s Pharmacokinetics Working Party confirmed unanimously that a test is not expected by the agencies. ‘Demonstration of steady state’ should not be understood in the statistical sense. Instead, individual pre-dose concentrations should be reported together with spaghetti plots and plots of geometric means. In the discussion it became clear that common sense should prevail. In an earlier meeting3 nothing was mentioned at all.❝ ❝ For 10+ years I’m presenting only summary tables, individual and spaghetti plots. All regulatory assessors were fine with that. I don't have access to the Open Forum Discussion, I tried to find reference no. 02 but I only found session 3 https://custom.cvent.com/6E33084F71EB4DD6B892656072736BFB/files/07323e6d219f47cdae68e89f1f508b6b.pdf, which isn't related to steady state achievement. Can you please provide the steady state related session to support protocol deviation/ amendment? Thank you ❝ I can’t follow you here. You stated something in the protocol without knowing how to perform the method? Ask the reviewer for help and report back here. I’m curious. Please see the article and graph ![]() Thank you |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2022-04-06 16:29 (1106 d 03:13 ago) @ Shatha Posting: # 22913 Views: 4,813 |
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Hi Shatha, ❝ ❝ What will you do if your ‘check’ fails? Since you don’t want to exclude subjects, would you throw the entire study into the waste container? ❝ ❝ So, if the test isn't clearly requested, then I don't have to do it in order to avoid any consequences, right? ❝ ❝ As I wrote in the article: In 20132 members of the EMA’s Pharmacokinetics Working Party confirmed unanimously that a test is not expected by the agencies. ‘Demonstration of steady state’ should not be understood in the statistical sense. Instead, individual pre-dose concentrations should be reported together with spaghetti plots and plots of geometric means. In the discussion it became clear that common sense should prevail. ❝ I don't have access to the Open Forum Discussion, I tried to find reference no. 02 but I only found session 3 https://custom.cvent.com/6E33084F71EB4DD6B892656072736BFB/files/07323e6d219f47cdae68e89f1f508b6b.pdf, which isn't related to steady state achievement. Can you please provide the steady state related session to support protocol deviation/ amendment? ![]() ![]() Just checked all others (links in this post): nothing. However, it was a response by the panelists (all members of the PKWP) to a question of an attendee. I know that other members of the forum attended this meeting as well. If you don’t believe me, maybe they can join the conversation and confirm that. See also the end of section 1 in this post which I wrote three days after the meeting when my memory was fresh. ❝ Please see the article and graph P.S.: Please don’t format your entire text in green. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Shatha ☆ 2022-04-07 12:58 (1105 d 06:44 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 22914 Views: 4,686 |
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Hi Helmut ❝ Just checked all others (links in this post): nothing. However, it was a response by the panelists (all members of the PKWP) to a question of an attendee. Ok, Thank you. ❝ I know that other members of the forum attended this meeting as well. If you don’t believe me, maybe they can join the conversation and confirm that. I didn't mean that. ❝ See also the end of section 1 in this post which I wrote three days after the meeting when my memory was fresh. Thanks a lot. ❝ THX. Where does the graph come from? I don't know, I received it by email as a separate graph. I tried to find the reference but I didn't get it. ❝ P.S.: Please don’t format your entire text in green. Ok One additional question please: spaghetti plots and plots of geometric means are the XY plots that are usually generated in WinNonlin, right? As I'm not familiar with the term "spaghetti plots". Thank you. |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2022-04-07 17:23 (1105 d 02:19 ago) @ Shatha Posting: # 22915 Views: 4,917 |
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Hi Shatha, ❝ ❝ Where does the graph come from? ❝ I don't know, I received it by email as a separate graph. I tried to find the reference but I didn't get it. ❝ spaghetti plots and plots of geometric means are the XY plots that are usually generated in WinNonlin, right? As I'm not familiar with the term "spaghetti plots".
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |