Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-13 16:22 (1521 d 12:53 ago) Posting: # 21868 Views: 8,152 |
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Dear all, I try to figure out when – and hopefully why – the partial replicate design TRR|RTR|RRT entered the scene. I must confess that I never heard about it till I was asked at a workshop in Ahmedabad in 2008. I knew only another partial replicate, the so-called extra-reference design TRR|RTR 1 (which should be avoided since it is biased in the presence of period effects). The first paper 2 of the ‘Two Lászlós’ dealt solely with the two-sequence, three-period full replicate design TRT|RTR. It laid the foundations of reference-scaled ABE. The FDA’s guidance of 2001 stated in Appendix B.2.: … the two-sequence, three-period design TRR|RTT is thought The partial replicate is given in the FDA’s progesterone guidance of April 2010 and by the EMA in Annex I of September 2016 (appeared first in Rev. 3 of the Q&A document in January 2011) though regulatory documents ≠ scientific justification. If you know any publication (preferrably prior to 2010), please let me know.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2020-08-13 17:23 (1521 d 11:53 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21869 Views: 7,103 |
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Hi Hötzi, it is very interesting. I looked at Chow&Liu's 2009 version of the holy scriptures and they also seem not to mention RTR/RRT/TRR. I can easily imagine that some innovator had a presub meeting with FDA (about which not much is in the public domain) and then the idea caught on in a rather un-public way and later got the nod from EMA. It is speculation of course but such things would often happen at the initiative in the private sector behind the curtains. I don't recall the details of dossiers I assessed, I am fairly sure that I (incompetently, of course) assessed BE trials based on RTR/RRT/TRR designs from 2005 and onwards, but I am not 100% sure. Had I not sniffed all that glue, memories of the past would likely have been less foggy. It might also be that one of the consortia like PQRI could have looked into the matter and released a white paper. I have no idea, but what a mystery My money is on Walter Hauck, if you can get hold of him, he will tell you where it all came from. Update: Kamal Midha referred to it as ABE3 in a presentation from 2006. https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/20170405065959/https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/slides/2006-4241s2_3_files/frame.htm Is there an easy way to download that thing, by the way???? — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-13 19:03 (1521 d 10:13 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 21871 Views: 7,079 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ Update: Kamal Midha referred to it as ABE3 in a presentation from 2006. Will be difficult to ask him since he retired and moved to Bermuda… ❝ Is there an easy way to download that thing, by the way???? Your wish is my command. Internet Archive October 2017. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2020-08-13 18:21 (1521 d 10:54 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21870 Views: 7,084 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ If you know any publication (preferrably prior to 2010), please let me know. here ya go — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-13 19:08 (1521 d 10:08 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 21872 Views: 7,090 |
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Hi mittyri, ❝ here ya go Oh pleeeze, not that one! Of course, I have it but forgot that it deals with the partial replicate. I didn’t look at it for years cause you need a magnifying glass to read the tables (where the LaTeX screwed up making the formulas unusable). BTW, it was never published in a peer-reviewed journal… IMHO, proceedings are just one little step above “personal communication”. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2020-08-13 20:09 (1521 d 09:07 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21873 Views: 7,076 |
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Hi Helmut, ❝ BTW, it was never published in a peer-reviewed journal… IMHO, proceedings are just one little step above “personal communication”. Of course you're right. But it looks like it was so impressive that Dr.Patterson cited it in his dissertation. I did not find any other Hyslop's publications mentioning that design. Sometimes proceedings are stronger than many articles when you are honored person chosen by FDA — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-14 15:21 (1520 d 13:55 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 21876 Views: 7,016 |
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Hi mittyri, ❝ […] Dr.Patterson cited it in his dissertation. OK, a Ph.D. thesis (even when supervised by Byron Jones and Stephen Senn) is not a reliable source. Nevertheless, it contains some gems.
#1 is funny but IMHO, true. #2 is interesting. The same holds true for RSABE. Even worse for the FDA’s RSABE of NTIDs where a test of swT/swR is part of the procedure. Are the sample sizes large enough? #3 ‘The performance of estimates from FA0(2) REML was questionable’. Oops! Note that the simulations were performed for 4-period 2-sequence full (‼) replicate designs. Regrettably I failed to find Senn (2000).*
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
zizou ★ Plzeň, Czech Republic, 2020-08-14 01:24 (1521 d 03:51 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21874 Views: 7,067 |
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Dear Helmut, in this post I mentioned the oldest study with partial replicate design (sequences RRT,RTR,TRR) I know about. The study was conducted at AstraZeneca R&D Lund, Lund, Sweden in 1999. PDF (opening page linked to Statistical Review). Best regards, zizou |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-14 13:43 (1520 d 15:32 ago) @ zizou Posting: # 21875 Views: 7,081 |
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Dear zizou, ❝ in this post I mentioned the oldest study with partial replicate design (sequences RRT,RTR,TRR) I know about. THX! Funky model by Donald Schuirmann:
REPEATED statement and the covariance structure is not specified. Hence, SAS applies the default TYPE=VC (variance components). Let’s see what happens in PHX/WNL with the EMA’s data set II (of course, group terms deleted from Donald’s setup).
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2020-08-14 16:03 (1520 d 13:13 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21878 Views: 6,983 |
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Dear Helmut, IMHO Donalds model is a variant of the model with logistic groups, employing SAS Proc MIXED instead of Proc GLM. — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-14 16:06 (1520 d 13:10 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 21879 Views: 6,967 |
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Dear Detlew, THX for the clarification. I don’t speak SASian. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-14 21:37 (1520 d 07:39 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21881 Views: 7,191 |
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Dear all, while I still hope for a reliable source (i.e., published in a peer-reviewed journal) of the partial replicate, an interlude about sample sizes and more. Of course, I understand that people prefer three periods over four (less blood volume, lower chance of dropouts). László Tóthfalusi mentioned (IIRC, »Dissolution Testing, Bioavailability & Bioequivalence Conference«, Budapest 2006) that power depends on the number of administrations and therefore, if \(\small{N}\) is the sample size of a 2×2×2 crossover, for a 4-period replicate one would need \(\small{n=N/2}\) subjects and for 3-period replicates \(\small{n=3N/4}\). However, this is only approximate because the degrees of freedom are different (see below). Currently, this approximation is implemented – sorry, Dave and Yung-jin – in FARTSSIE and the R-package bear .
PowerTOST . In most cases the partial replicate requires more subjects than the 3-period full replicate. In a nutshell:
#3: In a pilot study CVwT is not only nice to know but useful. If CVwT < CVwR you get an incentive in planning the pivotal study (scaling depends on CVwR but the BE assessment on the pooled CVw). If CVwT > CVwR you can account for that and increase the sample size accordingly. If the pilot study was performed in the partial replicate design you have to assume that CVwT = CVwR. If CVwT < CVwR you waste money. If CVwT > CVwR your study will be underpowered. For a pivotal study you can approach the WHO for reference-scaling of AUC (cause a 4-period full replicate is recommended in the guidance). #5: Can be a show stopper in the partial replicate design. There is a slight risk (ABE for the FDA using FA0(2) acc. to the guidance and no convergence) that the PK metric in question cannot be assessed for ABE at all. Given all that, I don’t see any justification
R-script for the table:
R-script to simulate 1,000 studies; CV 20–60%, T/R-ratio 0.85–0.95, power 80–90%:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-08-19 23:31 (1515 d 05:44 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21889 Views: 6,672 |
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Dear all, I simulated 500 data sets in the partial replicate design with \(\small{s_\textrm{wT}^2=s_\textrm{wR}^2=0.086\: (CV_\textrm{w}\approx 29.97\%),}\) \(\small{s_\textrm{bT}^2=s_\textrm{bR}^2=0.172\: (CV_\textrm{b}\approx 43.32\%),}\) \(\small{\rho=1},\) \(\small{\theta_0=1},\) i.e., no subject-by-formulation interaction. With \(\small{n=24}\) subjects 82.3797% power to demonstrate ABE. Evaluation in Phoenix/WinNonlin 8.1 with the FDA’s covariance structure FA0(2) . Singularity tolerance and convergence criterion 1E-12 (instead of 1E-10), maximum iterations 250 (instead of 50).If you want to try it in SAS or any other software: The data sets in CSV-format. In 403 (80.6%) of the data sets PHX issued at least one warning. In 56 (11.2%) of the data sets PHX threw this:
In 340 (68%) of the data sets I was told:
In 333 (66.6%) of the data sets PHX threw this:
79.6% of the data sets passed BE. That’s only slightly lower than expected and likely due to the small number of simulations (10,000 are running). How close are the estimates to the targets?
We see also that the optimizer is fine in estimating CVwR but desperate with CVwT (only 437 values). The target was 29.9677% for both.
I evaluated the data sets with other covariance structures as well. Seems that FA0(1) is the winner.
FA0(2) didn’t converge). Perhaps as long as the data set is balanced and/or does not contain ‘outliers’, all is good. At the end of the day we are interested in the 90% CI. I compared the results obtained with FA0(1) and CS to the guidances’ FA0(2) . Up to the 4th decimal (rounded to percent, i.e., 6–7 significant digits) the CI was identical in all cases. Only when I looked at the 5th decimal for both covariance structures, 1/500 differed (the CI was wider). Since all guidelines require rounding to the 2nd decimal, that’s not relevant.I’m not a friend of the EMA’s ‘all effects fixed’ model because it assumes identical variances of T and R (which has be shown to be wrong in many full replicate studies). But, of course, no issues with convergence in this simple linear model. My original simulation code contained a stupid error (THX to Detlew for detecting it!) which lead to an extreme S×F-interaction. Example of one data set where the optimizer was in deep trouble. The default maximum iterations in PHX/WNL are 50. I got:
Welcome to the hell of mixed effects modeling. ? Edit 1: Results of a large data set (10,000 simulations, 20.5 MB in CSV-format). 80.95% passed BE in all setups. Relevant estimates were identical and pretty close to the targets:
FA0(1) .Edit 2: I manipulated the small data sets. Removed subject 24 to make the study imbalanced, removed the last period (T) of subject 23 to make it incomplete. Multiplied T of subject 1 with 5–10 to mimic an ‘outlier’. Only 15.4% of studies passed. Yep, even a single outlier might be the killer. 381 warnings by FA0(2) , 2 by FA0(1) , and 7 by CS .— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
PharmCat ★ Russia, 2020-08-20 00:26 (1515 d 04:49 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21890 Views: 6,566 |
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Hi Helmut! using DataFrames, CSV, ReplicateBE, LinearAlgebra Positive definite: 332(66.4%) Converged: 500(100.0%) I can make table with results if necessary. |