Amira Gouda ☆ Egypt, 2020-04-28 17:36 (1678 d 06:01 ago) (edited on 2020-04-29 11:02) Posting: # 21354 Views: 7,815 |
|
Hi, a BE study of standard design with truncated AUC 0-72, certain subject in one phase completed the samples up to 72 hours (test product) while in the other phase completed up to 12 hours (Reference product) the difference in AUC is very high (4 times) and the results including this subject dramatically changed to be failed Now could we
Are there any references support this issue? Thanks Amira Edit: Category changed; see also this post #1. [Mittyri] |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2020-04-29 13:50 (1677 d 09:46 ago) @ Amira Gouda Posting: # 21360 Views: 5,344 |
|
Hi Amira, Bad news: the study failed. And common jurisdictions do not let you to cherrypick. See here for some explanations. — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2020-04-29 17:19 (1677 d 06:18 ago) @ Amira Gouda Posting: # 21362 Views: 5,240 |
|
Dear Amira, ❝ a BE study of standard design with truncated AUC 0-72, certain subject in one phase completed the samples up to 72 hours (test product) while in the other phase completed up to 12 hours (Reference product) Do you mean to say that these subjects did not have any sample collected later than 12 hours, or that their concentration was BLQ after 12 hours ? In the first case: this would provide grounds for excluding them from the stats (should be pre-specified in the protocol). In the second case: you're in trouble. — Regards Ohlbe |
Amira Gouda ☆ Egypt, 2020-04-29 18:35 (1677 d 05:01 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 21364 Views: 5,304 |
|
Dear Ohlbe Thanks for your reply ❝ Do you mean to say that these subjects did not have any sample collected later than 12 hours, or that their concentration was BLQ after 12 hours ? ِActually, the first case is our case the subject did not have any sample collected later than 12 hours which occurred in phase 1 (and he consumed reference product), our protocol stated that dropouts and withdrawals will be included in pk, not statistics. the subject had completed the 2 phases due to sample size issues also the product half-life is a wide range, not a definite number. we analyzed all samples, but now:
Edit: Full quote removed. Please delete everything from the text of the original poster which is not necessary in understanding your answer; see also this post #5! [Ohlbe] |
Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2020-04-29 19:02 (1677 d 04:35 ago) @ Amira Gouda Posting: # 21365 Views: 5,255 |
|
Dear Amira, ❝ ِActually, the first case is our case the subject did not have any sample collected later than 12 hours [...] What was the reason why he didn't have any sample collected after 12 hours ? — Regards Ohlbe |
Amira Gouda ☆ Egypt, 2020-04-29 19:08 (1677 d 04:28 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 21366 Views: 5,244 |
|
Dear Ohlbe, ❝ What was the reason why he didn't have any sample collected after 12 hours ? he did not attend the samples collection for 24, 48 and 72 hours intervals (as the study protocol stated that the hospitalization lasts only for 12 hours) thanks |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2020-04-29 19:21 (1677 d 04:16 ago) @ Amira Gouda Posting: # 21367 Views: 5,205 |
|
Hi Amira Gouda, ❝ he did not attend the samples collection for 24,48 and 72 hours intervals (as the study protocol stated that the hospitalization lasts only for 12 hours) BE is generally done on the PP population, not on the ITT. This guy is clearly not participating PP, his AUC is not outright a meaningful indicator of product performance, so out he goes, I think. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Amira Gouda ☆ Egypt, 2020-05-02 01:50 (1674 d 21:47 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 21383 Views: 5,115 |
|
Hi ElMaestro, thanks for your reply ❝ This guy is clearly not participating PP, his AUC is not outright a meaningful indicator of product performance, so out he goes, I think. Yes, he actually missed the terminal phase, his AUC0-t is about 17% of his AUC0-inf, also check his figure What we could do? 1- Extrapolate to 72 h 2- Use AUC common (0-12) 3- or based on the results of the current study could we make another stage on 12 subjects (knowing that the first one was performed on 24)? 4- Exclude the subject from stat evaluation of AUC(0-t) and include in all other parameters (as long as it does not jeopardize the acceptance of the study) looking forward to your opinion thanks |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2020-05-02 13:35 (1674 d 10:01 ago) @ Amira Gouda Posting: # 21387 Views: 5,110 |
|
Hi Amira, ❝ Yes, he actually missed the terminal phase, his AUC0-t is about 17% of his AUC0-inf, also check his figure ❝ ❝ THX, very helpful. Comparing the profiles of both treatments around ten hours (does the drug undergo enterohepatic recycling?) clearly shows that the terminal phase is not reached. Given what we see for T – whatever the software suggests – I would say it starts at 24 hours. Since you cannot estimate λz for R, your 17% are too low. True number? Impossible to tell. ❝ What we could do? ❝ ❝ 1- Extrapolate to 72 h No (unknown λz). ❝ 2- Use AUC common (0-12) Makes sense to me. Regulatory acceptance unclear (not stated in any guideline so far). ❝ 3- or based on the results of the current study could we make another stage on 12 subjects (knowing that the first one was performed on 24)? No. Three reasons (regulatory, ethical, statistical):
❝ 4- Exclude the subject from stat evaluation of AUC(0-t) and include in all other parameters (as long as it does not jeopardize the acceptance of the study) IMHO, the most realistic approach. This is what I do in my studies for decades. But again, all conditions for exclusion – detailed! – stated in the protocol. Mine have one entire page of definitions (vomiting, diarrhea, missing samples, dealing with time deviations, unreliable λz, etc.), which will lead to the ITT- (PK insofar possible, even for dropouts) and PP-datasets. Whether a post hoc exclusion will be accepted, no idea. But yes, I agree with ElMaestro that the subject did not follow the protocol and therefore, might be excluded from the comparison of AUC (only). Cmax is still reliable because you had all concentrations before tmax and five decreasing ones after it. Since Cmax generally is more variable than AUC, likely the study was powered for it and you might easily pass AUC:
As usual the impact of dropouts – or in your case of an excluded subject – on power is pretty low. Have a look at the function pa.ABE() of PowerTOST and the example in its vignette.— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Amira Gouda ☆ Egypt, 2020-05-03 23:15 (1673 d 00:21 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 21388 Views: 4,810 |
|
Thank you very much, it is really helpful |