Beholder ★ Russia, 2019-11-08 08:51 (1861 d 05:43 ago) (edited on 2019-11-08 11:27) Posting: # 20764 Views: 7,177 |
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Hi to all! An article which might serve as "guideline" for conducting telmisartan BE studies in Russia written by expert organization representative. Open access and abstract in English is available. Main points represented in the article:
— Best regards Beholder |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2019-11-08 16:35 (1860 d 21:59 ago) @ Beholder Posting: # 20768 Views: 5,859 |
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Hi Beholder, ❝ An article which might serve as "guideline" for conducting telmisartan BE studies in Russia written by expert organization representative. Open access and abstract in English is available. THX; interesting. In Table 3 three studies are give twice each. Could reproduce the pooled CV of Cmax (43.57%). The upper limit 44.84% is based on a 75% CI. I would use a 80% CL. Given.
The recommended sample of 20 subjects is for a 2×2×4 design and ABEL based on a GMR of 0.95 and CV 0.45). I would not be that optimistic and suggest a GMR of not better than 0.90 (42 subjects). Not sure whether it makes sense to work with the pooled CV at all (different sampling schedules and bioanalytical methods). I like that the experts recommend 2-sequence 4- (TRTR|RTRT) and 3-period (TRT|RTR) full replicate designs and not the lousy partial replicate. Kudos! — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2019-11-08 23:00 (1860 d 15:34 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 20772 Views: 5,788 |
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Hi Helmut, ❝ In Table 3 three studies are give twice each. Could reproduce the pooled CV of Cmax (43.57%). The upper limit 44.84% is based on a 75% CI. I would use a 80% CL. Given. They stated above regarding 90% CI. Don't know what kind of distribution was used for CI calculation. Questions:
— Kind regards, Mittyri |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2019-11-09 12:36 (1860 d 01:58 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 20776 Views: 5,751 |
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Hi mittyri, ❝ They stated above regarding 90% CI. Don't know what kind of distribution was used for CI calculation. I think that’s wrong. The upper 90% confidence limit of the pooled CV (0.4357) with 356 degrees of freedom is 0.4601.
❝ – what do you think about statement that males and females (50/50) should be enrolled, since RLD says regarding sex differences in PK? 'Otherwise the marketed formulation could be not BE for other gender' From the EPAR: Plasma concentrations were higher in females than in males, without relevant influence on efficacy. ❝ – what do you think about FLU results (study 3)? I don’t believe it. Look at Figure 1 and Table 1. ❝ There's a comment in the text stated that LC-MSMS should be recommended since higher (!) concentrations were achieved with that method and LLOQ 0.5-3.0 Agree. The concentration in study 3 are way lower than what is not only seen in the other studies but also in the originator’s. Furthermore, the LLOQ is 14% of the (mean!) Cmax. That’s insufficient. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2019-12-04 09:53 (1835 d 04:41 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 20913 Views: 5,201 |
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Hi Helmut, ❝ ❝ – what do you think about statement that males and females (50/50) should be enrolled, since RLD says regarding sex differences in PK? 'Otherwise the marketed formulation could be not BE for other gender' ❝ Differences in plasma concentrations were observed, with Cmax and AUC being approximately 3- and 2-fold higher, respectively, in females compared to males.[/indent]That confirms the observation that highly variable drugs have a flat dose-response curve (no relevant influence on efficacy despite significantly higher concentrations). Since the experts recommended males and females, go for it. Bioanalysts will like it. I've found very interesting paper which explains the vision of experts. The abstract does not show the essence of recommendations given in that article, so I'll try to translate it here: The factor of intergender differences in crossover BE studies could be evaluated using CVintra and GMR evaluation stratified by gender. The extent of difference for CVintra could be established using F test with alpha=5% (95% significance level). For GMRs the difference is significant if it is more than 20%. In case of differences discovered the results of BE study call into question since it could be ineffective for more patients than in BE study. [what kind of patients are mentioned within BE study? I don't know, but the key message is clear] Due to high risk of that IMP administration the patients should be informed (addendum into leaflet) The last sentence is taken from here: Nevertheless, analysis according to sex will provide useful information that can be included in the package insert of the generic product warning patients about original by generic substitution in accordance with their sex But Manuel Ibarra et al. did not call into the question: The goal of our recommendation is not to restrict the commercialization of generic drugs. Average BE should be maintained as currently performed, based on the total number of subjects. Do you remember your investigations regarding dosing groups? Looks like another factor starts the game in Russia! — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2019-12-04 12:23 (1835 d 02:11 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 20915 Views: 5,230 |
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Hi Mittyri, ❝ I've found very interesting paper which explains the vision of experts. IMHO, rubbish. ❝ Do you remember your investigations regarding dosing groups? Looks like another factor starts the game in Russia! Please, not opening another construction site (the paper is still on my TODO-list). Let’s see what my my friend Alfredo* thinks about it (four authors of the Spanish agency and one of Health Canada):
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Yura ★ Belarus, 2019-12-04 13:16 (1835 d 01:18 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 20919 Views: 5,157 |
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Hi everyone! I see not the first article, they are so "raw" Articles are written like machine guns ... Let's talk about slow and fast metabolites ... the circus with respect |
Yura ★ Belarus, 2019-12-04 15:14 (1834 d 23:20 ago) @ Yura Posting: # 20922 Views: 5,122 |
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...from Russia |
PharmCat ★ Russia, 2019-12-10 19:53 (1828 d 18:41 ago) @ Yura Posting: # 20969 Views: 4,997 |
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❝ I see not the first article, they are so "raw" Hi everyone! I was in fear when I had been reading this. ??? Be careful, when someone decide to follow this guide - disbalance by gender in sequences can make you surprised. |
Helmut ★★★ Vienna, Austria, 2019-12-03 13:19 (1836 d 01:15 ago) @ Beholder Posting: # 20908 Views: 5,395 |
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Hi Beholder, following the previous article another one* was published yesterday. Regrettably designs of studies are again not given (I thought from the other article that the Telmisartan studies were performed in 2×2×2 crossovers). I guess there is a typo in the paper. I could reproduce the pooled CV only when using CV 55.34% of study #7 (and not with the 31.51% of this paper). Seems that the studies were performed in 4-period full replicates (Candesartan in different designs?). I think that in some cases naïve pooling (and “officially” recommending a sample size based on the upper CL of the pooled CV) is not a good idea. Do you trust in a CV of Cmax of Losartan of 6.84% (5/27 studies had <10%)? I doubt it. Similar Valsartan: Two studies with 7.54% and 8.07% (gimme a break), when the median of the 16 others is already 32.8%. What I like (p. 681, first paragraph): The factors contributing to the observed variation that were included in the ANOVA were the sequence, subjects, period, and drug. (my emphasis)Hey, no stupid nested subject(sequence)! ElMaestro will be happy. Since the article is behind Springer’s pay-wall see the R-code at the end. I’m not worried about differences in the 3rd decimal figure. The authors used Excel 2016. Hence, it might be a rounding issue (commercial in Excel and scientific in R). Perhaps there are other typos? Can one of the Russian friends check the original publication?
There would be mismatch for Candesartan when assuming the same design in all studies. Hence I bootstrapped the design (note: other patterns of designs would work as well).
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! Helmut Schütz The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Mikalai ★ Belarus, 2019-12-09 19:27 (1829 d 19:07 ago) @ Beholder Posting: # 20968 Views: 5,062 |
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❝ 2. Not only males should be enrolled but females as well (50/50). This is a rather dubious approach. We test bioequivalence only in the healthy but do not usually in the elderly, the sick, those with renal and liver problems and etc. But we do expand the results of our studies to the aforementioned groups. Moreover, in Russia, bioequivalence studies are usually conducted in relatively young people, less than 50 years old, usually. This is barely a target population. Absolute numbers of PK parameters may differ, but it is very unlikely that the PK of products may differ to bioeinequivalence unless we have information about substantial variability in a specific group. In addition, I saw many trials with only male subjects done in India. They were registered in Europe. But personally, I have not encountered that they were later withdrawn from the market because they were found less efficacious and/or more dangerous in a specific gender or another group. Unfortunately, experts from CIS are infamously known because of their rather questionable and unscientific approaches to BE studies and the registration process. Also, our population is so so so so different that studies can be done only within the Eurasian Economic Union. |