jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2019-02-25 23:03 (2259 d 06:31 ago) Posting: # 19972 Views: 7,929 |
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Hi, Can someone tell me what the BE requirements were 1990/before, FDA? I mean the 90% CI requirement. Yeah I was still in school.... Thanks J |
nobody nothing 2019-02-25 23:39 (2259 d 05:56 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 19973 Views: 7,248 |
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75/25, 90%CI was rocket science ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-26 01:44 (2259 d 03:50 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 19974 Views: 7,564 |
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Γεια σου, λακωνικό Οδυσσέα! ❝ 75/25, 90%CI was rocket science Don’t forget #3 and #4 mentioned in this post. The 75/75 rule was proposed in 1978 for tricyclic antidepressants.1 (2) The test drug product shall be deemed to meet the bioequivalence requirement for in vivo testing in humans if the following conditions are met: The 80/20 rule (aka the “power approach”) was introduced by the FDA after a workshop in December 1971 (‼).6 Schuirmann showed why it is crap.7 Unfortunately (for historic reasons) it is still part of Phoenix/WinNonlin’s output and happily reported by some (see my rant, follow-up). @John: The 90% CI was recommended in 1992.8
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2019-02-26 16:19 (2258 d 13:15 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19976 Views: 7,052 |
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Thanks guys! ❝ @John: The 90% CI was recommended in 1992.7 Thanks Helmut. The reason I asked is because I read some report (dated 1990; the synopsis only) and the one sided 90% CI was reported as lower = -18.33%, upper = -6.36%; T/R Ratio = 93.86, n=24. I found it strange to report CI in such a way so I was wondering if the reporting was based on some old rules. Thanks J |
nobody nothing 2019-02-26 17:07 (2258 d 12:27 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 19978 Views: 7,170 |
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...maybe guys at that time where looking if the CI included 0 (Danish style, so to say...) or trying to hide that the lower bound is below 0.8... ? Just kidding... — Kindest regards, nobody |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-28 13:03 (2256 d 16:31 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 19979 Views: 7,251 |
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Hi John, ❝ […] I read some report […] and the one sided 90% CI was reported as lower = -18.33%, upper = -6.36%; T/R Ratio = 93.86, n=24. I found it strange to report CI in such a way so I was wondering if the reporting was based on some old rules. Strange! As the name tells, TOST are interval (significance) tests giving two p-values – one for the 1st (left) test where H01: PE < ln(1–0.2) H02: PE > ln(1+0.2)
Coming back to your case. I’ve never seen results reported in such a way. If we would report the CI as usual we would give (93.86 – 18.33)% = 75.53% and (93.86 – 6.36)% = 87.53% and the study failed (like nobody assumed). But then we have another problem with the reported T/R-ratio which transforms to (93.86 – 100)% = –6.14%. Then –18.33% < –6.14% < –6.36%, or what? Based on 100√0.7553 × 0.8753 we get 81.29% ≠ 93.86%. Or are the boundaries given relative to 100%? Bizarre. However, then the study would pass since (100 – 18.33)% = 81.67% and (100 – 6.36)% = 93.64%. Note that the reported PE is outside the CI… ❝ […] (dated 1990; the synopsis only) Was the study performed for Health Canada? In the 1989 draft 80–120% (untransformed data) were recommended and changed to 80–125% (log-transformed) in 1991. Then the study would have passed again cause –18.33% > –20% and –6.36% < +20%. However, the problem with the PE persists cause 100(–0.1833 + (–0.0636)) / 2 = –12.35% ≠ –6.14%. I don’t get it.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2019-03-01 09:50 (2255 d 19:44 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19981 Views: 6,912 |
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imho it's the CI for the difference in AUC(?) between T and R, although this is really a strange way to report the results. Might be to obfuscate somefink. Anyway I would be careful with data that old, if you don't have access to methods (including bioanalytics) and raw data. — Kindest regards, nobody |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2019-03-01 18:40 (2255 d 10:54 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 19982 Views: 6,972 |
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Hi Guys (and Gals!), It's a 2-way crossover US study (definitely not anywhere else, clinical done in 1990 so was report). Here is the exact wordings from the table (if that makes any difference to what I posted). Note that the summary table also presented +/- Westlake 95% CI.. Cmax(n=24): Detectable differences(%)=13.28 T/R Ratio=93.86% +/- Westlake 95% CI=20.12% One sided t-test 90% CI:Lower limit= -18.33%, Upper Limit= -6.36% Thanks J |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-03-02 16:37 (2254 d 12:58 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 19985 Views: 6,775 |
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Hi John, ❝ Here is the exact wordings from the table (if that makes any difference to what I posted). Note that the summary table also presented +/- Westlake 95% CI.. ❝ ❝ Cmax(n=24): ❝ Detectable differences(%)=13.28 “Detectable difference” stinks of the FDA’s 80/20 rule (at least 80% post hoc power to detect a 20% difference). Was applied till 1992. IMHO, since 13.28% < 20%, Cmax failed. ❝ T/R Ratio=93.86% ❝ +/- Westlake 95% CI=20.12% Why 95%? However, Westlake’s CI is an information sink (example). By fiddling around with the t-values his CI is always symmetric around 100%. He suspected that clinicians are not comfortable with a CI which is asymmetric (see this post). As a side effect the T/R-ratio should not be given. ❝ One sided t-test 90% CI:Lower limit= -18.33%, Upper Limit= -6.36% Here’s the other way ’round. Should be 95%. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2019-03-01 18:44 (2255 d 10:50 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19983 Views: 6,831 |
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Hi Helmut! ❝ Was the study performed for Health Canada? In the 1989 draft 80–120% (untransformed data) were recommended and changed to 80–125% (log-transformed) in 1991. ❝ Then the study would have passed again cause –18.33% > –20% and –6.36% < +20%. However, the problem with the PE persists cause 100(–0.1833 + (–0.0636)) / 2 = –12.35% ≠ –6.14%. I don’t get it. That I do not know (if it's for Canada) but it was a us study w US products. But your suggestion about Canada using non-transformed make sense(?) Can you tell me (or pt to me) about the Canadian guidance 89? Thanks J |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-03-02 16:09 (2254 d 13:26 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 19984 Views: 6,826 |
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Hi John, ❝ ❝ Was the study performed for Health Canada? In the 1989 draft 80–120% (untransformed data) were recommended and changed to 80–125% (log-transformed) in 1991. ❝ ❝ But your suggestion about Canada using non-transformed make sense(?) Can you tell me (or pt to me) about the Canadian guidance 89? Another goody: At the “International Open Conference on Dissolution, Bioavailability, Bioequivalence” (Toronto, June 15–17, 1992) the current draft was provided (without a date), which stated 95% CI of relative mean AUC 80%–125%. John Ruedy (Chairman, Expert Advisory Committee of Biovailability, HC’s HPB) pointed out in his presentation that the final guidance will require a 90% CI.Couldn’t find the pre-1992 guidance so far. ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2019-03-02 17:42 (2254 d 11:53 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19986 Views: 6,791 |
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Take the report and make little pieces out of it, makes perfect notepads. Otherwise no use of such data, except if you dig out some raw data — Kindest regards, nobody |