asjrm ☆ UK, 2017-11-19 01:44 (2140 d 16:48 ago) Posting: # 17988 Views: 9,643 |
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Hi I am conducting a PK study where multiple doses are given morning and night for 14 days and blood concentrations are measured at pre-dose, 0.5,1,2,3,6,12,24 hours on day 15. The last dose is given on day 15 morning. The researcher wants me to estimate the PK parameters of the single dose from the blood concentrations of multiple dosing. is this possible? Thank you in advance. Edit: Category changed; see also this post #1. [Helmut] |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2017-11-19 07:32 (2140 d 11:00 ago) @ asjrm Posting: # 17989 Views: 8,705 |
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❝ The researcher wants me to estimate the PK parameters of the single dose from the blood concentrations of multiple dosing. ❝ is this possible? 1) Do you know the half-life of this drug? 2) Was there drug accumulation? 3) Is the elimination kinetic complicated (i.e, biphasic elimination) J |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2017-11-19 11:24 (2140 d 07:08 ago) @ asjrm Posting: # 17991 Views: 8,748 |
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Hi Jeewaka, ❝ […] a PK study where multiple doses are given […] to estimate the PK parameters of the single dose from the blood concentrations of multiple dosing. ❝ is this possible? Not easy. You could only perform modeling assuming (!) linear PK (clearance will not change over time). Given your sampling schedule I guess it will be very difficult to model anything beyond a simple one compartment model (e.g., ≥2, Michaelis-Menten elimination, circadian rhythms influencing the PK after the morning/evening doses, saturation of metabolising enzymes after accumulation, auto-induction or inhibition …). Even then you get only PK parameters describing the overall behaviour of the drug – not “of the single dose”. See this example of auto-induction (slides 21–22). With your sampling schedule I guess it would be impossible.* Next time I strongly suggest to sample at the pre-doses to get an idea. Much better to sample after the first dose as well. The combination of some data and an aching desire for an answer does not ensure that a reasonable answer can be extracted from a given body of data. John W. Tukey
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Yura ★ Belarus, 2017-11-21 12:48 (2138 d 05:44 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 17997 Views: 8,733 |
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Hi Helmut AUC is truncated with an interval of reception (in the morning and in the evening - 12 hours). what 24 hours? if after the first dose - it is also 12 hours. Perhaps, the AUCt / AUCi criterion will be less than 80%. Thank you |
SDavis ★★ ![]() UK, 2017-11-24 11:59 (2135 d 06:34 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 18000 Views: 8,600 |
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I would echo Helmut's comments regarding the assumptions you would have to make and convey to your audience; probably I would try to build a compartmental PK model and then simulate a profile for Day 1. Simon — Simon Senior Scientific Trainer, Certara™ [link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-yCO5Rzag[/link] https://www.certarauniversity.com/dashboard https://support.certara.com/forums/ |
nobody nothing 2017-11-24 17:07 (2135 d 01:25 ago) @ SDavis Posting: # 18001 Views: 8,533 |
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❝ I would echo Helmut's comments regarding the assumptions you would have to make and convey to your audience; probably I would try to build a compartmental PK model and then simulate a profile for Day 1. If you built a model based on sampling on Day 15 only, you also have to assume linear PK/no induction. So why not simply use Cl = dose/AUC instead? ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
SDavis ★★ ![]() UK, 2017-11-24 23:09 (2134 d 19:23 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 18003 Views: 8,715 |
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If I assume linear PK etc, with a model I can estimate all PK parameters e.g. Cmax, etc on Day 1. It is also possible you might not be at steady state on Day 15, if you have a long half-life. Simon. — Simon Senior Scientific Trainer, Certara™ [link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-yCO5Rzag[/link] https://www.certarauniversity.com/dashboard https://support.certara.com/forums/ |
nobody nothing 2017-11-27 15:13 (2132 d 03:20 ago) @ SDavis Posting: # 18013 Views: 8,352 |
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I see that quite often people thinking that a "model" can "extract" hidden information from their data, which is not really there (except for a number of implicit assumptions made). Would love to see the CI for the single dose Cmax predicted from Day 15 data. And some real-life data for single-dose PK. ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
SDavis ★★ ![]() UK, 2017-11-28 12:34 (2131 d 05:58 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 18017 Views: 8,373 |
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Oh I agree they are estimates, but no more so than the AUC assumption you're making with NCA, possibly less so as I am not assuming Day 15 is at steady state. — Simon Senior Scientific Trainer, Certara™ [link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-yCO5Rzag[/link] https://www.certarauniversity.com/dashboard https://support.certara.com/forums/ |
nobody nothing 2017-11-28 12:51 (2131 d 05:41 ago) @ SDavis Posting: # 18018 Views: 8,423 |
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Without ANY prior knowledge on the compound: Assume you have data only for Day 15. Samples obtained on this single day (24 h), no subsequent sampling. If the t1/2 is SO long that you havn't reached steady state by Day 15, no chance to describe this t1/2 (with model or otherwise) reliable from data obtained within 24 h sampling period. ![]() But as long as we have no idea on the prior knowledge on the compound/formulation we are talking about, all this is somewhat academic ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
SDavis ★★ ![]() UK, 2017-11-28 12:54 (2131 d 05:38 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 18019 Views: 8,389 |
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true, I forgot no subsequent sampling after Day 15, perhaps it's not too late for OP to request an extra PK analysis, they may still be coming in for a follow up visit ;0) — Simon Senior Scientific Trainer, Certara™ [link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-yCO5Rzag[/link] https://www.certarauniversity.com/dashboard https://support.certara.com/forums/ |
nobody nothing 2017-11-21 15:54 (2138 d 02:38 ago) @ asjrm Posting: # 17998 Views: 8,788 |
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Assuming you are in steady-state on day 15 (and linear PK/no induction, of course), the AUC over the dosing interval on Day 15 should equal the AUC0-oo of a single dose. To estimate the Cmax following single-dose you would need to sample on Day 1 imho... — Kindest regards, nobody |