VSL ☆ India, 2017-01-31 07:47 (2967 d 08:17 ago) Posting: # 16998 Views: 14,641 |
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Dear All, Could you please explain the following points?
Many Thanks in advance Edit: Subject line changed (was: Higher order cross over designs). [Helmut] |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2017-01-31 13:42 (2967 d 02:22 ago) @ VSL Posting: # 17000 Views: 13,852 |
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Hi VSL, your terminology is unfortunate. Generally x-way (x: 2, 3, 4…) refers to the number of treatments (or formulations). The common 2×2×2 (for simplicity aka 2×2, TR|RT, AB|BA) refers to two treatments, two sequences, two periods. If we have more than one treatment we talk about a ”higher order crossover”. Examples: 3×3 and 4×4 Latin Squares or a 3×6×3 Williams’s design. In none of these designs any of the treatments is replicated. ❝ 1. Is there any thumb rule (apart from %CV more than 30), when to use three way against four way cross over design? IMHO, only if the sample volume is limited, a three-period replicate is the better choice. In a four-period replicate the chance of dropouts is higher than in three-period replicates. However, the loss of power is overrated by many. ❝ 2. […] four way design reduces the sample size compared to three way designs, Correct. But to get the same power the number of treatments (and hence, the number of biosamples mainly driving the study costs) is similar. Sample sizes (n) and number of treatments (t) for GMR 0.9, target power 80%:
❝ […] is there any additional advantage which four way design give You’ll get CVwT additionally to CVwR (which is required for reference-scaling). More about that at the end of the post. Nice to know and required for the FDA’s RSABE for NTIDs. ❝ (in terms of overall outcome of the study)? If you mean the chance of passing BE, no. ❝ 3. Even though variability is less than 30%, we perform three or four ways cross over study, would it enhances chance of passing the study (i.e forced BE) compared to simple two way design? Generally not. The sample size is not directly accessible, only power. The sample sample size is iteratively altered until at least the target power is reached. Example:
The number of periods in replicate designs is not so important. You have to decide whether you use one of the full replicates (two sequences; four periods: 2×2×4 or RTRT|TRTR, three periods: 2×2×3 or RTR|TRT) or the partial replicate (three sequences; three periods: 2×3×3 or RRT|RTR|TRR). The later is a lousy design (since T is not repeated and the FDA’s model is over-specified). In the worst case the study is done and the optimizer fails to converge (independent from the software). Then you are in bad situation. Lots of money spent, no result at all… Please avoid it; don’t follow guidelines blindly. If you opt for one of the full replicates (which I hope) you should perform the pilot study in a full replicate design as well. In many cases the variability of T is lower than the one of R – which will lead to a lower sample size for the pivotal study. If the pilot study was performed in the partial replicate you have to assume that CVwT = CWwR. Examples for GMR 0.90, target power 80%, 4-period full replicate:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
VSL ☆ India, 2017-01-31 15:03 (2967 d 01:01 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 17002 Views: 12,840 |
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Thanks Helmut for your elaborate explanation. |
Balaji ☆ India, 2017-03-04 12:19 (2935 d 03:45 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 17131 Views: 12,246 |
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Hello Helmut, Thanks for your clarification on the semi replicate and replicate designs. However could you please elaborate on the below . . ❝ In the worst case the study is done and the optimizer fails to converge (independent from the software) - What do you meanly optimiser fails to converge ? When does this happen ? Edit: Standard quotes restored; see also this post #8. [Helmut] |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2017-03-06 12:40 (2933 d 03:24 ago) @ Balaji Posting: # 17137 Views: 12,482 |
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Hi Balaji, ❝ However could you please elaborate on the below . . ❝ ❝ ❝ In the worst case the study is done and the optimizer fails to converge (independent from the software) ❝ ❝ - What do you meanly optimiser fails to converge ? As I wrote above: ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ […] the partial replicate is a lousy design (since T is not repeated and the FDA’s model is over-specified). My wording was not precise. The partial replicate design is not lousy per se – only model recommended by the FDA’s to evaluate if. The model attempts to estimate the intra-subject variability of T which is not uniquely contained in the data. Do you remember our conversation about intra-subject variability in a parallel design? Similar story. ❝ When does this happen ? If one is not allowed to scale (swR <0.0294) and use the FDA’s mixed-effects model for ABE with the FA0(2) specification of the covariance structure according to the guidance. Such a situation is not uncommon: RSABE possible for Cmax but not for AUC.
I asked numerous times here and in Certara’s Extranet why one wants to use a partial replicate design – and never received an answer. ![]() May I ask: Why do you want to use it? — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2017-03-06 14:47 (2933 d 01:17 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 17139 Views: 12,086 |
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❝ I asked numerous times here and in Certara’s Extranet why one wants to use a partial replicate design – and never received an answer. One guy told me: I'm not going to determine any parameter that is a - not asked for by authorities b - might put my product (now or in the furture...) in a bad light compared to reference In the very beginning of this scaling discussion someone stated (regarding replicate for Reference): "Why should I characterize the REFERENCE product? This should f**ing do the originator!" No joke... — Kindest regards, nobody |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2017-03-06 15:00 (2933 d 01:04 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 17140 Views: 12,254 |
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Hi nobody, ❝ One guy told me: I'm not going to determine any parameter that is ❝ ❝ a - not asked for by authorities Good advice. I have given up reporting anything (even in an exploratory manner) which is not requested. ❝ b - might put my product (now or in the furture...) in a bad light compared to reference I know which side you are on. ![]() ❝ In the very beginning of this scaling discussion someone stated (regarding replicate for Reference): "Why should I characterize the REFERENCE product? This should f**ing do the originator!" No joke... Les Benet at the BioInternational ’94 in Munich. You’ve been there… — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2017-03-06 15:18 (2933 d 00:46 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 17141 Views: 12,166 |
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❝ Les Benet at the BioInternational ’94 in Munich. You’ve been there… Nice location, btw. ![]() ...but even some 10 years ago (and later) from time to time this sentiment came up from Schlipsträgers... Re. Test better than Ref: But you can't know in advance and if you have a look at some of the "companies" nowadays "developing" generics your "gut feeling"/experience from the past might be subjected to some change (as so many things nowadays...) — Kindest regards, nobody |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2017-03-06 18:49 (2932 d 21:15 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 17142 Views: 12,205 |
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❝ Nice location, btw. Yep. ❝ (you still have the list of participants? ***glotz***) Can’t remember whether one existed. I only have the list of organizers and speakers. ❝ Re. Test better than Ref: But you can't know in advance … Only an educated guess from a pilot. ❝ … and if you have a look at some of the "companies" nowadays "developing" generics your "gut feeling"/experience from the past might be subjected to some change (as so many things nowadays...) All too true. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |