MGR ★ India, 2014-05-22 09:45 (3991 d 07:16 ago) Posting: # 12981 Views: 12,438 |
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Hi All, We are going for a 2stage approach for EMA using Potvin B method. Is this type of analysis can be done by WinNonlin 5.2 or 6.3? Moreover is there any articles/guidelines for the SAS code? Thanks in advance, — Regards, MGR |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-05-22 10:17 (3991 d 06:44 ago) @ MGR Posting: # 12982 Views: 11,330 |
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Dear MGR, ❝ We are going for a 2stage approach for EMA using Potvin B method. Welcome to the club ![]() ❝ Is this type of analysis can be done by WinNonlin 5.2 or 6.3? Do not have this software, but I think Helmut has posted here about this. You may find some material in his lectures also, some decided to the 2-stage evaluation. ❝ Moreover is there any articles/guidelines for the SAS code? AFAIK there is no decided article/guideline containing SAS code in this respect. But it should not that hard to code it: For stage 1 use the code for classical ABE for a 2x2 cross-over, but instead of calculating 90% CIs derive the CIs to the confidence level (1-2*0.0294) = 94.12%. The power inspection step and the sample size estimation are a little bit hairy in SAS. Don't really know if Proc Power can be used for that. I suggest to use some tool external to SAS. You may guess what I recommend ![]() For stage 2 evaluation (if a second stage becomes necessary) use a model with the effects:
Here my SAS code for that: Proc GLM data=yourdata; That is it. Not so difficult, isn't it? Hope this helps. BTW: There is a new revision of the EMA Q&A quite recently (09-May-2014) out there: EMA/618604/2008 Rev. 9 — Regards, Detlew |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-05-22 14:24 (3991 d 02:37 ago) @ MGR Posting: # 12986 Views: 12,397 |
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Hi MGR, ❝ Is this type of analysis can be done by WinNonlin 5.2 or 6.3? WinNonlin 5.2 is history (released in 2007, end of support of v5.2.1 was already in June 2011). In the following the procedure in Phoenix/WinNonlin’s 6.3 BE tool (EMA’s all fixed effects method and the additional term in the second stage according to the Q&A-document Rev.7) and Example 2 from Potvin’s paper:
Intermediate power after stage 1 and sample size estimation for stage 2 in PowerTOST :
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-05-23 23:17 (3989 d 17:44 ago) (edited on 2014-05-24 08:35) @ Helmut Posting: # 13001 Views: 10,899 |
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Dear Detlew & Helmut, Sorry to cut in. Thank you both for the great summary of the two-stage approach. It sounds like that it is possible to implement all these using R or into bear together with PowerTOST. ❝ [...] ❝ You should get: ❝ OK, the example is from WLN. CVintra = 18.21% (for Cmax?) with 12 subjects. So it is not a HVD, is it? Does EMA or FDA accept the two-stage BE if it is the case? ❝ [...] ❝ Nice explanations and thank you both again. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-05-24 00:39 (3989 d 16:22 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13002 Views: 11,020 |
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Hi Yung-jin, ❝ […] It sounds like that it is possible to implement all these using R or into bear together with PowerTOST. Yes, why not? ![]() ❝ OK, the example is from WLN. The example is from Potvin’s paper. ❝ CVintra = 18.21% (for Cmax?) with 12 subjects. They didn’t state which PK metric the data covers. ❝ So it is not a HVD, isn't it? The CV of the pooled data set (n=20) is 21.67%. So HVD is unlikely. ❝ Does EMA or FDA accept the two-stage BE if it is the case? Hopefully only in such cases (conventional unscaled ABE). I have heard that some people already — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
MGR ★ India, 2014-07-02 09:08 (3950 d 07:53 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13199 Views: 10,702 |
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Hi Helmut, Here in our company WinNonlin 5.2.1 is installed, So i have to do analysis using the same version. Done the analysis, but the problem is that, 94.12% confidence interval values are coming same when subject(sequence) is treated as fixed effect and another with random effect. Could be please explain why this happened? I have attached the screen shot of the settings used. Thank you in advance. ![]() Edit: Subject line changed. [Helmut] — Regards, MGR |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-07-02 12:40 (3950 d 04:21 ago) @ MGR Posting: # 13201 Views: 10,695 |
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Hi MGR, ❝ Here in our company WinNonlin 5.2.1 is installed, So i have to do analysis using the same version. I don’t know how inspectors would judge the fact that your company is using an obsolete software (which is no more supported by Pharsight since 2011). The upgrade to Phoenix was free of charge for years. Talk to your management! ❝ Done the analysis, but the problem is that, 94.12% confidence interval values are coming same when subject(sequence) is treated as fixed effect and another with random effect. As expected… ❝ Could be please explain why this happened? The CI is calculated from the geometric mean ratio, the residual error, and the degrees of freedom (in a 2×2 cross-over n–2, where n is the total number of subjects). These values are identical in both models.1 My results for the first stage of Potvin’s Example 2, Method B in Phoenix / WinNonlin 6.3 – agreeing with what the authors reported:
EMEA. The European Medicines Evaluation Agency. However, for the EMA you have to stick to the all fixed effects model with Subject(Sequence).2 My experiences from a last year’s MRP (mixed effects model, Method C passed BE in the first stage): Accepted by the RMS Germany; no comments from the CMS Austria, Denmark, Sweden, and The Netherlands. Nonetheless, Spain: “Statistical analysis should be GLM. Please justify.” Can you guess the outcome of the all fixed effects model presented in the response letter?
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
MGR ★ India, 2014-07-03 08:32 (3949 d 08:29 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13206 Views: 10,404 |
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Hi HS, Thank you very much for the explanation ![]() ![]() — Regards, MGR |