drdds ● 2007-11-03 12:42 (6375 d 06:30 ago) Posting: # 1272 Views: 29,066 |
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Dear all, Can you please guide me on the following? In the bioequivalance study, we had deviation in time point of the blood collection, how much and how long are the deviations acceptable?? If not, why? if yes, what precausions to be taken in analysis? and what should be collection time points in crossover period?? Thank you. DDS Edit: Category changed. [HS] |
Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2007-11-04 01:29 (6374 d 17:44 ago) @ drdds Posting: # 1275 Views: 24,069 |
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Dear drdds, No guideline that I know of. ❝ if yes, what precausions to be taken in analysis? I would suggest to specify in your protocol when you will be using real sampling times and when you will use nominal sampling times (e.g. deviation of more than x minutes, or x minutes before a specific time point and y minutes after, or x % deviation from nominal...). ❝ and what should be collection time points in crossover period?? Stick to the nominal time point in the protocol. No adjustment based on the deviation in Period I. Regards Ohlbe |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2007-11-04 02:13 (6374 d 17:00 ago) @ drdds Posting: # 1276 Views: 24,512 |
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Dear DDS! ❝ In the bioequivalance study, we had deviation in time point of the blood collection, how much and how long are the deviations acceptable?? In addition to Ohlbe’s post a quote… G Pabst Deviations in sampling times (Chapter 5.5) in: W Cawello (ed), Parameters for Compartment-free Pharmacokinetics - Standardisation of Study Design, Data Analysis and Reporting Shaker Verlag, Aachen 2003, pp 78-79 Sometimes a sample cannot be taken at the planned time after drug administration. In principle, it is always possible to use the actual time of sampling – relative to drug administration – when calculating the AUC. On the other hand, this effort frequently dose not seem to be justified, since a shift of d data point in the concentration-time curve usually has only a marginal effect on the area under the curve (only the partial areas surrounding the delayed sample are affected). Hope that helps… — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2007-11-04 14:25 (6374 d 04:48 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 1278 Views: 24,219 |
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Dear HS, I do agree. Corrections for time deviations in AUC calculations usually result only in negligible differences in AUC results. But as always, I prefer to see things planned and described in advance, either in the protocol or in SOPs. Regards Ohlbe |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2007-11-04 14:45 (6374 d 04:28 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 1279 Views: 24,206 |
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Dear Ohlbe! ❝ Corrections for time deviations in AUC calculations usually result only in negligible differences in AUC results. Not only in the results (as stated by G Pabst based on simulations), but even more pronounced in the context of bioequivalence. Deviations of AUCs obtained from scheduled sampling times instead of from the more correct actual ones simply mean out in the calculation of BE (point estimate, confidence interval). A couple of years ago I evaluated quite a lot of studies in both ways to get some impressions. Results generally differed to less than 0.1% (!) in terms of BE… ❝ But as always, I prefer to see things planned and described in advance, either in the protocol or in SOPs. Me too! I’m always suggesting to use actual sampling times, but everybody should be aware that the crucial point is not the method of calculation (actual vs planned), but the location of sampling points. IMHO the most important region is around Cmax. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Dr.Tarak Parikh ☆ India, 2007-11-06 10:59 (6372 d 08:14 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 1288 Views: 24,185 |
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Hi, the explanation is understood,. would like to ask only 2 things.
regards Dr.Tarak |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2007-11-09 18:27 (6369 d 00:45 ago) @ Dr.Tarak Parikh Posting: # 1293 Views: 24,565 |
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Dear Tarak! ❝ 1. if it is a IR product, Tmax-12min, and T1/2 - 1hr, then what? Wow! Tmax 12 minutes, the perfect analgesic! It will be quite challenging to avoid FDA's In order to avoid bias in the calculation of AUC consider method 9 by RD Purves Unfortunately this algorithm is not implemented in standard PK software; you would have to write your own routines – which is not very complicated anyhow. ❝ 2. if deviation of blood collection is more than 5%, then should we continue the 2nd period?, if yes then should we collect the blood as per actual time point or schedule time? Continue in any case; but be prepared to report the reason for the deviation(s) in detail. Collection in the second period should be performed at the scheduled time; otherwise with such a short half life sampling at actual time points of period I for every subject you will end up in some kind of logistic chaos in period II. Edit: Link corrected to latest archived copy. [Helmut] — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ratnakar1811 ★ India, 2009-12-10 08:05 (5607 d 11:08 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4452 Views: 22,908 |
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Dear HS and forum members, ❝ Me too! I’m always suggesting to use actual sampling times, but everybody should be aware that the crucial point is not the method of calculation (actual vs planned), but the location of sampling points. ❝ IMHO the most important region is around Cmax. This topic was discussed long back, but recently i have received a letter from WHO for using actual time for PK analysis, as earlier we were considering schedule time if the deviation is <10% and for deviation >10% actual time. Generally we have a window of 2 min for inhouse sampling and for ambulatory samples we have a window of 1 hr mentioned in the protocol, now my question is should we use actual time for all the deviation irrespective as mentioned above (i.e. even the sample is delayed by 1 min also) or for only those samples for which protocol deviation required to be filed? Currently we have mentioned actual time to be considered for all the deviations even it is for 1 min also. Your views will be highly aprreciated. Regards, Ratnakar |
Pankaj Mishra ☆ Mumbai, India, 2009-12-10 11:05 (5607 d 08:08 ago) @ ratnakar1811 Posting: # 4456 Views: 22,895 |
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Dear Ratnakar, ❝ Generally we have a window of 2 min for inhouse sampling and for ambulatory samples we have a window of 1 hr mentioned in the protocol, now my question is should we use actual time for all the deviation irrespective as mentioned above (i.e. even the sample is delayed by 1 min also) or for only those samples for which protocol deviation required to be filed? ❝ ❝ Currently we have mentioned actual time to be considered for all the deviations even it is for 1 min also. I think we should use an acceptable limit of ± 2 minutes for all the samples whether in-house or ambulatory and we can mention this in our SOP. Why 1 hr for ambulatory when that is also scheduled? I don't think any regulatory may have an objection on this approach except for those case where we have first point Cmax and half life is very low (e.g. 1 hr). In those cases we may restrict ourselves to 1 min of acceptable deviation. Regards, Pankaj Mishra — Pankaj Mishra |
ratnakar1811 ★ India, 2009-12-10 13:46 (5607 d 05:26 ago) @ Pankaj Mishra Posting: # 4458 Views: 22,820 |
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Dear Pankaj, Thanks for reply! what about the consideration of actual time or schedule time in PK analysis? Best Regards, Ratnakar |
Pankaj Mishra ☆ Mumbai, India, 2009-12-11 11:49 (5606 d 07:24 ago) @ ratnakar1811 Posting: # 4468 Views: 22,905 |
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Dear Ratnakar, ❝ Thanks for reply! what about the consideration of actual time or schedule time in PK analysis? Apologies that I missed that important point...it will always be the actual time points for PK calculation whenever the deviation is more than the acceptable limits as defined in SOP or protocol. As I said earlier, acceptable limit can be taken as ± 2 min (usually plus but very rarely we observe negative deviation also ![]() ![]() Regards, Pankaj Mishra — Pankaj Mishra |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2009-12-11 15:03 (5606 d 04:10 ago) @ Pankaj Mishra Posting: # 4472 Views: 22,856 |
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Dear Pankaj! ❝ … it will always be the actual time points for PK calculation whenever the deviation is more than the acceptable limits as defined in SOP or protocol. ❝ […] we will be taking actual sampling time points only for those cases where it will be a protocol deviation. Simple-minded question: What is your rationale of using
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2009-12-10 14:13 (5607 d 05:00 ago) @ ratnakar1811 Posting: # 4459 Views: 22,861 |
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Dear Ratnakar! ❝ ❝ I’m always suggesting to use actual sampling times ❝ ❝ […] recently i have received a letter from WHO for using actual time for PK analysis Not surprising; see WHO Technical Report Series, No. 937 (2006) Annex 7: 6.10 Reporting of Results 19.3 Actual sampling times and deviations from the pre-specified sampling times should be recorded. ❝ […] as earlier we were cinsidering schedule time if the deviation is ❝ <10% and for deviation >10% actual time. Since you are already able to perform the calculation on actual times (according to your procedure if deviation >10%), why not to employ it in all cases? ❝ Generally we have a window of 2 min for inhouse sampling and for ambulatory samples we have a window of 1 hr mentioed in the protocol, now my question is should we use actual time for all the deviation irrespective as mentioned above (i.e. even the sample is delayed by 1 min also) or for only those samples for which protocol deviation required to be filed? If ever possible use the actual sampling time in the calculation. Many CROs record all actual times, and define time windows in the protocol where deviations have to be commented in the CRF. ❝ Currently we have mentioned actual time to be considered for all the deviations even it is for 1 min also. ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ratnakar1811 ★ India, 2009-12-11 11:16 (5606 d 07:57 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4467 Views: 22,813 |
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Dear HS! thanks a lot for reply. ❝ We have proposed this change of actual time for all the deviations, in our current SOP which is under review. Regards, Ratnakar |