|
Silva ☆ Portugal, 2013-12-31 13:17 (4537 d 09:20 ago) Posting: # 12118 Views: 7,517 |
|
|
Dear Helmut This is my first post, although I've been an enthusiastic reader of the forum and a student with your presentations. Congratulations for this site/forum, which I think is very usefull for BE community. A question that I've been tried to understand is that in a partial replicate design (for EU Scaled Average BE), is it possible to use 2 sequence (RTR and TRR, for example) or the study has to be design in a 3 sequence (RTR, TRR and RRT, according to FDA's progesterone example or according to data set on EMA Q&A document)? Does Phoenix enable a correct estimation of within subject variability and the calculation of the 90% CIs with this study design, or only SAS is possible to be used? Best regards and wish of a pleasant 2014 Silva |
|
Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-12-31 15:28 (4537 d 07:09 ago) @ Silva Posting: # 12119 Views: 6,598 |
|
|
Hi Silva, THX for the !❝ A question that I've been tried to understand is that in a partial replicate design (for EU Scaled Average BE), is it possible to use 2 sequence (RTR and TRR, for example) ❝ or the study has to be design in a 3 sequence (RTR, TRR and RRT, according to FDA's progesterone example or according to data set on EMA Q&A document)? ❝ Does Phoenix enable a correct estimation of within subject variability and the calculation of the 90% CIs with this study design, or only SAS is possible to be used? When it comes to RTR|TRR: Like the partial replicate it might be problematic, since T is not replicated. However, since EMA’s model is “crippled” you would not face problems like with FDA’s mixed-effects model (if CVWR <30%). You can use the code in the Q&A document without modifications (both in SAS and PHX).
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
|
BEQool ★ 2025-12-22 19:27 (163 d 03:11 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24535 Views: 1,834 |
|
|
Hello all, what is the correct ANOVA model for extra-reference design? Lets have a standard 2×2×2 crossover study that is extended by adding a third period in which all subjects receive the reference formulation only (i.e., extra-reference data in Period 3). If I analyze the data using the conventional ANOVA model with the four fixed effects (subject, sequence, period, and treatment), I obtain exactly the same PE as in the original 2×2×2 design. This remains true even when I simulate the reference data in Period 3 to be significantly lower (e.g., approximately half of the values observed in Periods 1 and 2). This seems unreasonable, because the additional reference data contain some additional information about reference treatment and should therefore probably influence the PE? So my question would be what is the correct statistical ANOVA model for an extra-reference design?Best regards BEQool |
|
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2025-12-23 12:58 (162 d 09:39 ago) (edited on 2025-12-23 15:33) @ BEQool Posting: # 24537 Views: 1,836 |
|
|
Dear BEQool! ❝ This seems unreasonable, because the additional reference data contain some additional information about reference treatment and should therefore probably influence the PE? library(PowerTOST)— Kind regards, Mittyri |
|
BEQool ★ 2025-12-29 15:17 (156 d 07:20 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 24541 Views: 1,688 |
|
|
Dear Mittyri! Thank you very much for the clear explanation and example, this is a wonderful Christmas present ![]() ❝ # in period 3, the model can only estimate the sum of Period3 and TreatmentR ❝ m.full <- lm(logCmax ~ sequence + subject %in% sequence + period + tmt, data = d0) ❝ # There is no information at all to distinguish Period and Reference ❝ # (no T to distinguish) ❝ # due to residual DF changes F for trt effects is also changed ❝ # The least-squares estimate of the treatment contrast (T–R) uses only periods 1 and 2 ❝ # Any change in period 3’s reference mean simply changes the period 3 effect, not the treatment effect ❝ # Therefore the PE (T/R ratio) is exactly the same as in the pure 2-period 2×2 core: So the values of reference treatment in period 3 are irrelevant for estimating the treatment effect (and therefore for calculating PE and 90% CI)? If I understand correctly, the model assumes that these "lower" values of reference treatment in period 3 are a " consequence" of the period (period effect) rather than the reference product itself? Consequently, the model assumes that if. e.g. the values of reference treatment are about 50% lower in period 3, the values of test treatment would also be about 50% lower if administered in the same period 3? Therefore, the PE remains unchanged? What does one then even gain with this design (with additional 3rd period) - I assume this design is more powerful than 2x2x2 design and therefore the 90% CIs should be narrower compared to 2x2x2? Additional question; for this extra-reference design I have seen statements such as - "Since the Test is not administered in all periods, lacking period effects must be assumed" [link], - "The three period partial replicate design with two sequences TRR|RTR (a.k.a. extra-reference design) should be avoided because it is biased in the presence of period effects" [link] and - "[...] a true period effect may give a biased treatment estimate in the extra-reference design"[link]. I am a little confused about what this means exactly. Here in our example we have period effect - does that mean that the calculated PE is biased? Or is PE (treatment effect) biased only if we exclude factor period (i.e. using ANOVA model with treatment, sequence and subject(sequence)) in the presence of period effect (as is the case here)? Namely if we exclude factor period from the ANOVA model, I think it would then also take into account reference data in period 3 for the calculation of treatment effect (PE) and the results would differ from that based on the first 2 periods? Therefore, would ANOVA model without factor period (i.e. ANOVA model of treatment, sequence and subject(sequence) also suffice if there is no period effect? Merry Christmas to everyone! BEQool |
|
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2025-12-29 23:16 (155 d 23:21 ago) @ BEQool Posting: # 24542 Views: 1,636 |
|
|
Dear BEQool! ❝ So the values of reference treatment in period 3 are irrelevant for estimating the treatment effect (and therefore for calculating PE and 90% CI)? No - for CI (see residual MS and residual df) ❝ If I understand correctly, the model assumes that these "lower" values of reference treatment in period 3 are a " consequence" of the period (period effect) rather than the reference product itself? Consequently, the model assumes that if. e.g. the values of reference treatment are about 50% lower in period 3, the values of test treatment would also be about 50% lower if administered in the same period 3? Therefore, the PE remains unchanged? ❝ What does one then even gain with this design (with additional 3rd period) - I assume this design is more powerful than 2x2x2 design and therefore the 90% CIs should be narrower compared to 2x2x2? ❝ I am a little confused about what this means exactly. Here in our example we have period effect - does that mean that the calculated PE is biased? The bias warnings mainly target analysis without period term included (i.e. assuming no period effect). So there's a trade-off: include period term and get PE driven by periods 1-2 or omit period term and assume no period effect at all. ❝ Or is PE (treatment effect) biased only if we exclude factor period (i.e. using ANOVA model with treatment, sequence and subject(sequence)) in the presence of period effect (as is the case here)? Namely if we exclude factor period from the ANOVA model, I think it would then also take into account reference data in period 3 for the calculation of treatment effect (PE) and the results would differ from that based on the first 2 periods? Therefore, would ANOVA model without factor period (i.e. ANOVA model of treatment, sequence and subject(sequence) also suffice if there is no period effect? — Kind regards, Mittyri |
|
BEQool ★ 2025-12-31 17:42 (154 d 04:55 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 24546 Views: 1,570 |
|
|
Hey Mittyri, ❝ Yes - for PE under the standard fixed effects model with period (any systematic shift in period 3, R is absorbed by the period 3 effect) ❝ No - for CI (see residual MS and residual df) Thank you for all your answers and explanations, everything is clear now ![]() All the best for the new year ![]() BEQool |

!![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/pics/Blue_and_yellow_ribbon_UA.png)
![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/img/CC by.png)
So my question would be what is the correct statistical ANOVA model for an extra-reference design?


