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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-01-28 01:52 (5998 d 21:07 ago) Posting: # 4652 Views: 8,436 |
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Dear all, on January 25 Health Canada published two draft guidances:
Section 2.6: Analytical Methodology in the draft document Conduct and Analysis of Comparative Bioavailability Studies, is currently still under revision and further consultation will be undertaken, as appropriate. Health Canada invites stakeholders to provide advance recommendations on analytical methodology, particularly assay validation. These recommendations will be taken into consideration in revising this section. The existing documents which will be superseded, once the two draft documents are finalized, are as follows:
Comments should be provided to Health Canada within 60 days of the publication of this Notice. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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earlybird ☆ 2010-02-09 09:35 (5986 d 13:25 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4737 Views: 7,114 |
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Dear Members, according Canada's new Draft Guideline for outlier testing a "studentised residual" test should be performed. Which test do they think about? What about Hotelings T2, Cooks distance, Mahalanobis distance, robust regression, Lund' test? Are these "studentised residual" tests? As I do not know all these tests exactly, I want hear other opinion? earlybird Edit: Linked to another thread. [Helmut] |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-02-09 15:55 (5986 d 07:04 ago) @ earlybird Posting: # 4738 Views: 7,180 |
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Dear earlybird! ❝ according Canada's new Draft Guideline for outlier testing a "studentised residual" test should be performed. Almost. TPD wants a test of the studentised residuals (Section 2.3.4 Outlier consideration, page 8):
I'm not sure whether 't-value' should read 'table-value' or 'value of the t-distribution'... ❝ Which test do they think about? Hhm, no idea. For an overview see this post. Especially Pikounis et al. (2001) is quite helpful. Everything is implemented in bear. ❝ What about Hotelings T2 Well, that's a multivariate test; what do you want to test here? ❝ Cooks distance, Mahalanobis distance, Exploratory only, i.e., no tests. ❝ robust regression, On what? ❝ Lund' test? Obsolete, I would say. ❝ Are these "studentised residual" tests? As said above we should test the studentised residuals; there's no "studentised residual test". For identification I use to plot the studentised intra-subject residual vs. the model response and had only two additional reference lines based on the normal distribution (0.05), i.e. at ±1.960. For 0.02 that would transfer to ±2.326. I'm not sure what TPD means by 'degrees of freedom for the design'. Most likely the one of the residual error (n1+n2-2 in a 2×2 cross-over). Examples: n=24, t0.02,22 2.508, n=36 t0.02,34 2.441. But that's no test; multiplicity issues are ignored (can they?)... — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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earlybird ☆ 2010-02-09 17:45 (5986 d 05:15 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4739 Views: 7,083 |
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Dear HS, ❝ Almost. TPD wants a test of the studentised residuals Ok sometimes the small words inbetween are important i.e. "of" ❝ ❝ What about Hotelings T2 ❝ ❝ Well, that's a multivariate test; what do you want to test here? This was a suggestion from one of your's previous posts ❝ ❝ Cooks distance, Mahalanobis distance, ❝ ❝ Exploratory only, i.e., no tests. ❝ ❝ ❝ robust regression, ❝ ❝ On what? ok, I have to check, that again ❝ ❝ Lund' test? ❝ ❝ Obsolete, I would say. ❝ ❝ ❝ Are these "studentised residual" tests? ❝ ❝ As said above we should test the studentised residuals; there's no "studentised residual test". ❝ For identification I use to plot the studentised intra-subject residual vs. the model response and had only two additional reference lines based on the normal distribution (0.05), i.e. at ±1.960. For 0.02 that would transfer to ±2.326. I'm not sure what TPD means by 'degrees of freedom for the design'. Most likely the one of the residual error (n1+n2-2 in 2×2 cross-over). ❝ Examples: n=24, t0.02,22 2.508, n=36 t0.02,34 2.441. But that's no test; multiplicity issues are ignored (can they?)... so all in all you mean 1. I should ask the Canadian what they mean exactly 2. Wait until the guideline is final? Greetings, earlybird |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-02-09 18:05 (5986 d 04:54 ago) @ earlybird Posting: # 4740 Views: 7,171 |
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Dear earlybird! ❝ ❝ ❝ What about Hotelings T2 ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ Well, that's a multivariate test; what do you want to test here? ❝ ❝ This was a suggestion from one of your's previous posts Hhm, do you mean this post? Sorry, but I don't remember what I meant there. ![]() One application of Hotelling's T² in NCA-PK is the assessment of steady state. Test for differences of all pre-dose concentrations; if significant, run pairwise comparisons (that's the multivariate part) in order to find out, when steady state was reached (the first nonsignificant difference). Again sorry for the confusion; but I don't see how Hotelling's T² would be applicable as an outlier test. ❝ so all in all you mean ❝ ❝ 1. I should ask the Canadian what they mean exactly ❝ 2. Wait until the guideline is final?
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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earlybird ☆ 2010-02-09 18:18 (5986 d 04:41 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4741 Views: 7,035 |
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Dear HS, ❝ ❝ This was a suggestion from one of your's previous posts ❝ ❝ Hhm, do you mean this post? Sorry, but I don't remember what I meant there. Exactly, and now as I know how to avoid full quotes (TOFU) , next time I will learn how to insert the link of a previous post ![]() ❝ ❝ so all in all you mean ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ 1. I should ask the Canadian what they mean exactly ❝ ❝ 2. Wait until the guideline is final? ❝
ok, I keep you informed! Greetings earlybird |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2010-02-10 14:51 (5985 d 08:09 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4744 Views: 7,031 |
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Dear Helmut! ❝ Hhm, do you mean this post? Sorry, but I don't remember what I meant there. This may be the age! Or too much work! Or both! You are not alone. ![]() ❝ Again sorry for the confusion; but I don't see how Hotelling's T² would be applicable as an outlier test. Have a look into J.-P. Liu, C.-S- Weng "Detection of Outlying Data in Bioavailability/Bioequivalence Studies" Statistics in Medicine, Vol. 10, 1375-1389 (1991) and eventually you remember ... — Regards, Detlew |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-02-11 18:56 (5984 d 04:03 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 4752 Views: 7,413 |
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Dear D Labes! ❝ ❝ [...] Sorry, but I don't remember what I meant there. ❝ ❝ This may be the age! Or too much work! Or both! Yes, both for sure. Thanks for the reminder; an overview is also given in the textbook most of us have our bookshelves: S-C Chow and J-p Liu Design and Analysis of Bioavailability and Bioequivalence Studies Chapter 8 Assumptions of Outlier Detection for Average Bioequivalence, Section 8.4.2 Hotelling T² Chapman & Hall/CRC Press, Boca Raton, pp 240-247 (3rd ed. 2008) Hotelling's T² is included in bear since version 2.2.0 (02/2009). — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2010-02-10 14:36 (5985 d 08:23 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4743 Views: 7,251 |
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Dear Helmut, dear earlybird! ❝ Almost. TPD wants a test of the studentised residuals (Section 2.3.4 Outlier consideration, page 8):
❝ First, in order to be considered an extreme value, the observation must be outside the range of all the other observations regardless of formulation. Second it must be identified by an outlier test. It is recommended that the outlier test be a simple studentised residual tested against a conservative t-value at the .02 level of significance and degrees of freedom for the design. In other words the test should only identify observations which are very different from all others collected. ❝ I'm not sure whether 't-value' should read 'table-value' or 'value of the t-distribution'... To add my two pence: IMHO this calls directly for the ("obsolete") Lund test! ![]() As far as I remember and as far as I understood this test up to now Lund suggested to test the studentized residuals against an appropriate t-value (the residuals are assumed as approximately distributed according to a Student's t-distri). However he suggests to test with a Bonferroni adjusted alpha, i.e. with quantil of the t-distribution qt((1-alpha/(2*n)),df) where n is the number of residuals and df the error degrees of freedom. Seems this is too conservative for the Canadians .Lund, "Approximate Tables for Outliers in linear Models", Technometrics Vol.17/4, 473-476 (1975) — Regards, Detlew |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-02-12 21:04 (5983 d 01:55 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 4755 Views: 6,980 |
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Dear D Labes! ❝ As far as I remember and as far as I understood this test up to now Lund suggested to test the studentized residuals against an appropriate t-value (the residuals are assumed as approximately distributed according to a Student's t-distri). ❝ However he suggests to test with a Bonferroni adjusted alpha, i.e. with quantil of the t-distribution qt((1-alpha/(2*n)),df) where n is the number of residuals and df the error degrees of freedom. Hhm, are you sure about the way the Bonferroni-correction is applied? Do be honest, it's quite a long time ago, I used Lund's test. I did not really dwelve into the theory behind, but only tested the studentized residuals against his Table 1 values (at 0.05). I used q=5 for the effects in the model: sequence, treatment, period, subject(sequence) + intercept. Since there are a lot of missing rows for the number of residuals (n) in the table, I fitted an empirical function, rounded to two decimal places: 0.057979×ln(n)5-1.022492×ln(n)4+7.221331×ln(n)3-25.628487×ln(n)2+46.329654×ln(n)-31.856913 The empirical fit gives table values for n=9-70. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-02-12 21:29 (5983 d 01:30 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4756 Views: 6,999 |
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Hi HS, ❝ I used q=5 for the effects in the model: sequence, treatment, period, subject(sequence) + intercept. How/why does the intercept count as an "effect"? Best regards and thanks for any insight, EM. |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-02-13 01:03 (5982 d 21:57 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 4758 Views: 6,889 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ ❝ I used q=5 for the effects in the model: sequence, treatment, period, subject(sequence) + intercept. ❝ How/why does the intercept count as an "effect"? Well, cough... Lund's paper gives an example from a multiple regression model (Y on x1, x2) where the intercept is included. Therefore q=3 in the paper. Forgive my youthful abandon; maybe I called the test "obsolete" because I never understood it. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-02-13 02:04 (5982 d 20:55 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4759 Views: 6,909 |
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Hi, ❝ Well, cough... Lund's paper gives an example from a multiple regression model (Y on x1, x2) where the intercept is included. Therefore q=3 in the paper. Forgive my youthful abandon; maybe I called the test "obsolete" because I never understood it. I just took a look at the paper and the example you mention. My take on it after reading and understanding very little: q is the number of columns in the model matrix; in BE we -depending how we specify our model and/or which software is used- sometimes work with full rank matrices or deficient rank matrices. I am inclined to think q thereby can or must be understood as the rank of the model matrix. In a 2,2,2-BE trial with m subjects: q= 2 for the treatments + 2 for the sequences + 2 for the periods + m for the subjects, then subtract one for each redundancy. I think this is in total q=m+2 (give or take, it is a little late). Weird. Slaap lekker. EM. |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2010-02-22 13:52 (5973 d 09:08 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 4809 Views: 7,342 |
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Dear Helmut! ❝ Hhm, are you sure about the way the Bonferroni-correction is applied? Sorry for the delay, but I was lost in snow last week . Had very fine holidays in the Harz mountains in the middle of germany.I must confess that I do not remember exactly what I figured out about Lund's test in the very past. Then later on I discarded my code because of the agreed rating in the BE community "Lund's test is obsolete for cross-over trials". Now again I had to figure out what is written in Lund's paper (cryptic for me). Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studentized_residual and you will find (like me) that ISR2 = rdf * t2/(t2+rdf-1) where ISR is the internal standardized residual and rdf the residual degrees of freedom and t is student's t distributed with rdf-1 degrees of freedom. This formula is identical to Lund page 473, right paneel, noticing that t2 = F and rdf = n-p. With that you can reproduce the Lund tables if you use the Bonferroni correction for determination of the t-quantiles. No need to fit approximating functions. Here some beginners R-code for the first column in Table 1 of Lund's paper: alpha <- 0.1Result:
n= 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 14(last row from Lund's paper, used a Taylor series for the density function of Student's distri, see page 476) For our BE studies take the residual degrees of freedom from the ANOVA and proceed accordingly. Eventually we had to consider that the residuals are not independent (correlated) on each subject and adjust n in the Bonferroni adjustment (1-alpha/(2*n)) to the number of independent residuals. BTW: The externally studentized residuals are themselves t-distributed with n-p-1 degrees of freedom, if Wikipedia is true. So we can use the t-quantiles directly to test them. — Regards, Detlew |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-02-25 15:22 (5970 d 07:37 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 4817 Views: 6,816 |
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Hmmm, this works on yours truly's machine:
Lund <- function (Linmo, alpha, Verbose)EM. Example - taken from Lund's paper. y=c(64,60,71,61,54,77,81,93,93,51,76,96,77,93,95,54,168,99) x1=c(0.4, 0.4, 3.1, 0.6, 4.7, 1.7, 9.4, 10.1, 11.6, 12.6, 10.9, 23.1, 23.1, 21.6, 23.1, 1.9, 26.8, 29.9) x2=c(53,23,19,34,24,65,44,31,29,58,37,46,50,44,56,36,58,51) Lm2=lm(y~x1+x2) Lund(Lm2, 0.01,1) |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2010-02-25 17:34 (5970 d 05:25 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 4819 Views: 6,788 |
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Dear ElMaestro, ❝ Lund <- function (Linmo, alpha, Verbose) ❝ { ❝ ... ❝ q=qr(model.matrix(Linmo))$rank ❝ n=length(residuals(Linmo)) ❝ ... ![]() Is there any hidden secret behind? I would do: summary(Linmo)$df[2] # error degrees of freedom— Regards, Detlew |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-02-25 18:06 (5970 d 04:53 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 4820 Views: 6,781 |
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Dear d_labes, ❝ Is there any hidden secret behind? There's no deep secret. My basis was the model matrix (dimensions n x q) of which the interpretation of q was addressed above. I noted you also used n and q in your equations, so I tried to write elmaestrolophystic code reflecting that. Best regards EM. |

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, next time I will learn how to insert the link of a previous post 



