Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-05 16:04 (2256 d 08:01 ago) Posting: # 19867 Views: 10,252 |
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Dear all, I’m struggling in understanding HC’s rules. The current guidance states: 2.3.5 Outlier consideration
Background: I have a pilot study on my desk where 4 PK metrics are agreed upon with HC as primary (Cmax, AUC0–t, and two partial AUCs) for the pivotal study. One subject showed for the first pAUC a T/R-ratio of 6.993 (!) with a studentized residual of –7.198. Studentized residuals of the other metrics are fine. OK, it’s a pilot study. Would already pass BE with flying colors for 3 metrics but the upper 90% CI for the first pAUC is 156.4% (CV 50.1%). After exluding the subject the CV would decrease to 22.1%. Do I understand the guidance correctly: I’m not allowed to exclude the pAUC of the outlying subject cause the other metrics are fine? ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2019-02-05 16:30 (2256 d 07:35 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19868 Views: 9,040 |
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Hi Helmut, yes it was meant to indicate that if one metric is outlier then the others should be as well before exclusion is appropriate. However, I don't think they are always enforcing it that way. After all, rate is not the same as extent and vice versa. But does it make a big difference? Exclusion changes little in your case since it was a pilot and you will need to consider the sample size and relevance of the CV and PE sampled in the pilot when planning the pivotal in any case. If Cmax and AUC were more or less normal for the subject, then in all likelihood she munched the medication as directed to and what you saw is populations , products and random happenings at work. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-05 17:24 (2256 d 06:41 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 19872 Views: 9,014 |
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Hi ElMaestro, THX for your nice words! ❝ yes it was meant to indicate that [ Yep, that’s what I assumed as well. ❝ However, I don't think they are always enforcing it that way. Shall I cross fingers? ❝ After all, rate is not the same as extent and vice versa. Xactly! ❝ But does it make a big difference? Exclusion changes little in your case since it was a pilot … No problems with this one. I’m worried what will happen in the pivotal study. ❝ … and you will need to consider the sample size and relevance of the CV and PE sampled in the pilot when planning the pivotal in any case. But that’s the point! This one subject drives the PE to 110% and with a CV of ~50% I end up with ~200 subjects in a 2×2. OK, for HC (and even for the EMA cause it’s a MR) I could apply reference-scaling. 28 subjects in a 2×4. Fine, but the pivotal is a little bit tricky (5 arms already, don’t ask me why). Hence, I don’t want to go there. ❝ If Cmax and AUC were more or less normal for the subject, … T/R of Cmax 1.115 and of AUC0–t 1.036… ❝ … then in all likelihood she munched the medication as directed to and what you saw is populations, products and random happenings at work. Oh dear! There were formulation changes (plural!) which were acceptable to be supported by dissolution similarity on this side of the pond. AFAIK, this stuff is marketed in ~50 countries. So far, so good. Rules are different. For one of the changes in CAN one would need a BE study. Hence, a lot of stuff to do. The original application was a hybrid (two clinical studies). In order to bridge to the clinical stuff HC wants a BE study of the current formulation against the “old” one. When looking at the individual curves I would say that the current formulation is closer to the originally aimed target profile. In this subject the old formulation looks bad in the first couple of hours. That’s my problem. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2019-02-05 18:33 (2256 d 05:32 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19873 Views: 8,994 |
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Hi Hötzi, ❝ Shall I cross fingers? I am inclined to just write what the guideline says. Cross fingers, light 15 candles and say a lot of Ave Marias. Always works. ❝ But that’s the point! This one subject drives the PE to 110% and with a CV of ~50% I end up with ~200 subjects in a 2×2. OK, for HC (and even for the EMA cause it’s a MR) I could apply reference-scaling. 28 subjects in a 2×4. Fine, but the pivotal is a little bit tricky (5 arms already, don’t ask me why). Hence, I don’t want to go there. I am delighted I am not having the responsibility for taking the decision about pivotal design and sample size given that info ![]() On the rare occasion when I encounter clients who want 5 arms then usually those are innovators who are entering the game of generics or BE and who, one way or another, think bioequivalence is just a very simplified kind of innovator thinking. The attitude to it is quite leaned back. It results in those funny designs which don't correspond to the philosophy of guidelines and where the complications far, far exceed the advantages. It is God's gift to my blood pressure that I don't get involved in those developments very often. ![]() ![]() — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2019-02-05 16:54 (2256 d 07:11 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19870 Views: 9,065 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ Do I understand the guidance correctly: I’m not allowed to exclude the pAUC of the outlying subject cause the other metrics are fine? Interesting. Well, pAUC was added to the guidance in June 2018, but the section on outliers was already there. Not sure that they considered all implications when they revised the guidance. Maybe it would be worth contacting Health Canada to ask for a confirmation ? They may have only had Cmax and AUCt in mind when this paragraph was written ? — Regards Ohlbe |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-05 18:52 (2256 d 05:13 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 19875 Views: 8,997 |
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Hi Ohlbe, ❝ […] pAUC was added to the guidance in June 2018, but the section on outliers was already there. Not sure that they considered all implications when they revised the guidance. Maybe it would be worth contacting Health Canada to ask for a confirmation ? They may have only had Cmax and AUCt in mind when this paragraph was written ? Maybe. This part of (3) is funny: Parameters of interest are usually an AUC and Cmax measure, but in some instances other parameters are required. Others? Wow! I guess they mean additional ones. The only studies I ever have done without AUC and Cmax were for an antibiotic where primary were a set of Occupany times.![]() And yes, we are in constant contact with HC. This part slipped through my attention. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2019-02-05 16:58 (2256 d 07:07 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19871 Views: 9,088 |
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Hi Helmut, maybe I'm only one who is confused with that statement, but: 3. The subject in question should be identified as an outlier for all parameters, for either the test or reference product, upon which the bioequivalence decision is to be based. Either? Sorry for my poor grammar knowledge but 'either' is a kind of choice, right? So does it mean we need to find out the outliers using the datasets splitted by formulation, not for the ratio T/R? ![]() — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-05 18:42 (2256 d 05:23 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 19874 Views: 9,067 |
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Hi Mittyri, ❝ maybe I'm only one who is confused with that statement, but: ❝ 3. The subject in question should be identified as an outlier for all parameters, for either the test or reference product, upon which the bioequivalence decision is to be based. ❝ ❝ Either? Sorry for my poor grammar knowledge but 'either' is a kind of choice, right? In the combination either – or, absolutely. If you drop the or it is a synonym for each (element of a set). Either A or B: A ∨ B Either of A, B, C: A ∧ B ∧ C I guess HC means that it doesn’t matter whether an aberrant response is seen after test or reference. Agrees with ICH E9 Section 5.3: Any outlier procedure set out in the protocol or the statistical analysis plan should be such as not to favour any treatment group a priori. ❝ So does it mean we need to find out the outliers using the datasets splitted by formulation, not for the ratio T/R? Good point. If we split the dataset, we can’t run the model, right? Studentized residuals? Nada. I guess HC talks about discordant outliers. In other words, it doesn’t matter whether the aberrant response is observed for the test or reference. Like it. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Shuanghe ★★ Spain, 2019-02-06 12:48 (2255 d 11:17 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19880 Views: 8,912 |
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Dear all, On slightly related issue. Canadian guideline says max 5% outliers can be removed and one criterion for outlier test is studentised residual > 3. I had an incidence in a pilot study where there are more than 5% subjects having studentised residual > 3. Since it's a pilot, it doesn't matter too much but in the protocols of pivotal studies I made it very clear that if this happens, the 5% subjects to be removed will be chosen by the magnitude of the residuals: only remove those with highest residual (in absolute value, e.g., those with residual -7 will be removed before those with residual 5). For the rest of those subjects, even though they are identified as outlier, they will be included in the BE evaluation, in accordance with guidance's 5% rule. Unfortunately (or fortunately), it never happens to my pivotal studies so I have no idea if Canadian agency is really ok with this. Do any of you have such experience? — All the best, Shuanghe |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2019-02-06 13:20 (2255 d 10:45 ago) @ Shuanghe Posting: # 19881 Views: 8,947 |
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Hi Shuanghe, wouldn't you remove subject (sing.) with the highest absolute magnitude of studentised residual first, and then re-residual them all (having the first subject removed) before considering removal of the next? I would do that, to perpetuate the thinking behind removal of calibrators that is widely used in bioanalytics. It is the same kind of apples and pears ![]() — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2019-02-06 15:04 (2255 d 09:01 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 19882 Views: 8,825 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ wouldn't you remove subject (sing.) with the highest absolute magnitude of studentised residual first, and then re-residual them all (having the first subject removed) before considering removal of the next? do you mean ESD? — Kind regards, Mittyri |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2019-02-06 19:12 (2255 d 04:53 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 19885 Views: 8,925 |
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Hi Mittyri, ❝ do you mean ESD? I mean more or less: 1. Fit the model on the dataset 2. Evaluate if there is an outlier (or more than one) by whatever criterion such as stud.res. >3 3a. If there is no outlier proceed to 4. 3b. If there is an outlier, remove it. This defines a new dataset. Cycle back to step 1. In the case of multiple aberrant values noted under step 2, focus only on the one whose magnitude is highest, eg. the highest absolute stud. res. 4. Do stats via the fitted model. I don't know if this is ESD. It is an abbreviation I am not familiar with and I am on my way out, so not too much time to investigate the link. But let me guess: Emily Saw Dennis? Every Skunk Dies? Eagles Soar Deliriously? Eat Sh!t and Die? Evelyn Sauntered Diagonally? — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
zizou ★ Plzeň, Czech Republic, 2019-02-06 21:52 (2255 d 02:13 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 19886 Views: 8,960 |
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Hello everybody and nobody. I'm just thinking about another slightly related issue. Assume that there is an outlier in the study for Health Canada. If the outlier wasn't removed, we would get GMR1, intra-subject CV1 and corresponding 90% CI. However the outlier is removed according to the study protocol and the results are different:
Assume the border case with true GMR 0.8 and intra-subject CV e.g. 30%. The TIE (in the border case equal to power) in standard 2x2 BE is 5%. However I am not sure if it is the same with exclusion of outlier. So do we get some bonus power as intra-subject CV will be always lower after exclusion? I just imagine the simulation - individual simulated cases with:
Maybe someone could try to simulate it - TIE with the exclusion of outlier(s) for BE in 2x2. I am not familiar with outliers and complicated simulations - simulate data (true GMR 0.8 and intra-subject CV 30%), look for outliers and exclude them (it could end with lowering the intra-subject CV), calculate 90% CI, and do it million times. The result will be probably close to 5%, but still higher? Best regards, zizou |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2019-02-07 11:37 (2254 d 12:28 ago) @ zizou Posting: # 19887 Views: 8,730 |
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Hi Zizou, at a first look your arguments are convincing indeed. A basic assumption in BE is that what we observe in the study is an unbiased sample of the population, i.e., the true (but unknown) distributions of the sample and the population are identical. Only then we can extrapolate the study’s result to the patient population (BE as a substitute for therapeutic equivalence). As stated in HC’s guidance parametric methods are not robust against extreme values. My example:
Observations:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |