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Darborn ☆ Taiwan, 2025-10-17 07:40 (245 d 13:38 ago) Posting: # 24464 Views: 4,043 |
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Hi everyone I was reading the lecture slides presenting by Helmut in SAAMnow called "Data Manipulation in Bioequivalence". At the page 8, it said comparing plasma concentration profiles with f2 method. I tried with some profiles but got negative f2 values, so does the data need to be transformed or normalized? Anyone has ideas? Thanks |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2025-10-17 14:51 (245 d 06:26 ago) @ Darborn Posting: # 24465 Views: 3,690 |
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Hi Darbon, ❝ I was reading the lecture slides presenting by Helmut in SAAMnow called "Data Manipulation in Bioequivalence". At the page 8, it said comparing plasma concentration profiles with f2 method. I tried with some profiles but got negative f2 values, … Edit: This formula is wrong. See this post for the correct one.❝ … so does the data need to be transformed or normalized? Anyone has ideas? Perhaps ElMaestro will join the discussion. He developed much better methods.1,2
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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Darborn ☆ Taiwan, 2025-10-21 03:02 (241 d 18:15 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24468 Views: 3,404 |
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Hi Helmut, I may add some background information. China's regulatory agency (NMPA/CDE) refused to approve multiple highly-variable products which conducted their bioequivalence study in a four-period crossover design. The reason for this acion was based on "The similarity of plasma-concentration curves of the same subject between TEST and REFERENCE is larger than the similarity between two repeated REFERENCE". I tried to calculate the f2 factor using the Cmax value of the reference product as a correction factor, and I found many different products had a similar pattern that "The similarity of plasma-concentration curves of the same subject between TEST and REFERENCE is larger than the similarity between two repeated REFERENCE". I believe this is due to the nature of highly-variable products and randomness, but I am not sure if this is correct. Does FDA or EMA have similar statments? Thanks |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2025-10-21 14:39 (241 d 06:38 ago) @ Darborn Posting: # 24469 Views: 3,493 |
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Hi Darborn, ❝ China's regulatory agency (NMPA/CDE) refused to approve multiple highly-variable products which conducted their bioequivalence study in a four-period crossover design. The reason for this acion was based on "The similarity of plasma-concentration curves of the same subject between TEST and REFERENCE is larger than the similarity between two repeated REFERENCE". ❝ I tried to calculate the f2 factor using the Cmax value of the reference product as a correction factor, and I found many different products had a similar pattern that "The similarity of plasma-concentration curves of the same subject between TEST and REFERENCE is larger than the similarity between two repeated REFERENCE". ❝ I believe this is due to the nature of highly-variable products and randomness, but I am not sure if this is correct. Does FDA or EMA have similar statments? Sorry to hear this. It seems you are caught in a mess which may not be your fault. On one hand, if you use a method which allows for profile dilution prior to duplication (such as method 101 in the paper referenced by Hötzi) then one might think that "T vs R" and "T vs T" and "R vs R" should give the same profile scores and same variability if the products are bioequivalent. On the other hand, if you compare "T vs T" or "T vs R" it is not quite the same as "T vs R" as you have an additional factor (or source of variability) in that experiment, and that's of course the formulation. Bt please elaborate on terminology: When you/they say similarity is larger, does that mean a larger score or "more similar" or both? In the papers referenced above similarity score gets smaller as profile pairs get more similar. Who knows what method they are using at the agency?! A method with the same property or a method with the opposite property, or something altogether not fitting into this paradigm? Kindly give more info from your deficiency letter. Any little bit helps. I think there are some options, I am confident there must be unless the case is closed, but the devil will be in the details and we are still in the early days of similarity measurements. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Shuanghe ★★ Spain, 2025-10-29 17:27 (233 d 02:50 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24471 Views: 3,288 |
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Hi Helmut, ❝ That’s strange. Are you comparing concentrations at the same nominal time points? I can’t imagine your results from the formula $$f_2=50\,\log_{10}\left\{100\,\sqrt{1+\frac{1}{n}\sum_{i=1}^{i=n}(\text{R}_i-\text{T}_i)^2}\right\}$$ because the differences are squared and thus, always be ≥ 0. I just want to say that mathematically it is possible to have negative \(f_2\), though in the context of dissolution comparison you'll never see it. But Darbon was talking about concentration profile comparison, so with certain very different profiles, you could end up with negative \(f_2\). I think there's a typo in the \(f_2\) formula in your post. 100 should be the numerator and square root is the denominator. When the average difference is more than 100%, you'll have domain value of log function less than 1, which leads to the negative results. An example: if the average difference is 100%, then you'll have $$f_2=50\,\log_{10} \frac{100}{\sqrt{1+\frac{1}{n}\sum_{i=1}^{i=n}100^2}} = -0.001.$$ With average difference of 110%, \(f_2=-2.07\). By the way, why single $ doesn't work for inline math? Edit: MathJax corrected. [Helmut] — All the best, Shuanghe |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2025-10-29 18:01 (233 d 02:16 ago) @ Shuanghe Posting: # 24472 Views: 3,266 |
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Hi Shuanghe, ❝ By the way, why single $ doesn't work for inline math? \(...\). See this post for the syntax.$...$ as limiter – like in R Markdown – is not allowed because it would screw up any text of a post containing $ or if used in R-code like foo$bar. I will edit your post.I will check the formulas later. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2025-10-30 11:28 (232 d 08:49 ago) @ Shuanghe Posting: # 24473 Views: 3,239 |
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Hi Shuanghe, diving into the formulas. Ugly as shit in the ICH M9 guideline$$\text{f2}=50\phantom{.}\tiny{\bullet}\normalsize\phantom{.}\log\{\text{[}1+(1/\text{n}){\Sigma_{\text{t=1}}}^\text{n}(\text{R}_\text{t}-\text{T}_\text{t})^2\text{]}^{-0.5}\phantom{.}\tiny{\bullet}\normalsize\phantom{.}100\}\tag{1}$$ which we can beautify to your $$f_2=50\cdot\log_{10}\frac{100}{\sqrt{1+\frac{1}{n}\sum_{t=1}^{t=n}(\text{R}_t-\text{T}_t)^2}}\tag{2}$$ Thanks a lot! I screwed up in my post above because I had overlooked that the exponent of the term in square brackets of \((1)\) is –\(0.5\) and not \(0.5\)… If we don’t trust algebra, we can compare the formulas by brute force.
Try very different values:
❝ An example: if the average difference is 100%, then you'll have $$f_2=50\,\log_{10} \frac{100}{\sqrt{1+\frac{1}{n}\sum_{i=1}^{i=n}100^2}} = -0.001.$$ ❝ With average difference of 110%, \(f_2=-2.07\). IMHO, if you have the average difference, you should not square it. You need the average of squared difference. Then:
Of course, I can be wrong. Given all that, I think that \(\small{f_2}\) is not useful for comparing (plasma) concentration profiles. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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Shuanghe ★★ Spain, 2025-11-05 15:24 (226 d 04:53 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24479 Views: 2,814 |
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Hi Helmut, ❝ diving into the formulas. Ugly as shit in the ICH M9 guideline$$\text{f2}=50\phantom{.}\tiny{\bullet}\normalsize\phantom{.}\log\{\text{[}1+(1/\text{n}){\Sigma_{\text{t=1}}}^\text{n}(\text{R}_\text{t}-\text{T}_\text{t})^2\text{]}^{-0.5}\phantom{.}\tiny{\bullet}\normalsize\phantom{.}100\}\tag{1}$$ ![]() ❝ IMHO, if you have the average difference, you should not square it. You need the average of squared difference. ![]() — All the best, Shuanghe |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2025-10-30 16:40 (232 d 03:38 ago) @ Darborn Posting: # 24474 Views: 3,093 |
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Hi Darborn, ❝ I was reading the lecture slides presenting by Helmut in SAAMnow called "Data Manipulation in Bioequivalence". At the page 8, it said comparing plasma concentration profiles with f2 method. I tried with some profiles but got negative f2 values, so does the data need to be transformed or normalized? Anyone has ideas? Not the slightest idea whether this makes any sense at all. ![]() — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2025-11-03 15:15 (228 d 05:02 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24475 Views: 2,868 |
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Hi all, f2 has been tested vigorously and rigorously with fraudulent datasets, by ... well ... someone. We can rather easily anchor it to some convenient value like zero for a perfect match and so on. No issues there. But even so, the experiments with f2 have been troubled by the fact that it does not separate duplicates from non-duplicates very well. So empirically speaking, it has been a kind of dead end. However, that can be improved if we introduce weighting and give higher weights to higher concentrations just as with methods 101, 36, 205 etc. Even so, a plain f2 derivative does not capture dilutions. So, if profiles are diluted before re-analysis then f2 can be a painful acquaintance. Moreover, the need to validate not just precision but also accuracy when developing methods is relevant: Even with un-diluted re-analysis the re-analysed profiles are occasionally displaced vertically. Stating it differently: We get dilution estimates a little bit different from 1 with methods that allow that, and that phenomon renders methods that do not allow dilution kind of useless. At least, so says the guy who has been looking a bit into it. He is a bit of a weirdo, though. I heard he is currently in Ahmedabad with trips to Surat, Mumbai, Goa and Hyderabad coming up. Getting something useful from that guy might take a while. ![]() — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Darborn ☆ Taiwan, 2025-11-07 07:04 (224 d 13:14 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24480 Views: 2,767 |
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Hi Helmut, I eventually tried a normalization method that dividing all concentration data by the average Cmax of the reference product. This gives me, in nearly all cases, positive f2 values. This is similar to the method described in this article, althogh I used the whole curve instead of the absorption phase. |

Edit: This formula is ![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/pics/Blue_and_yellow_ribbon_UA.png)
![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/img/CC by.png)




