Helmut
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Vienna, Austria,
2011-01-25 14:53
(5224 d 05:25 ago)

Posting: # 6489
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 Rounding (a never-ending story) [RSABE / ABEL]

Dear all!

We know from this rather lengthy thread that k 0.760 leads to a (small) discontinuity of the acceptance range. Maybe that’s the reason the GL states

Highly variable drug products (HVDP) are those whose intra-subject variability for a parameter is larger than 30%. […] For the acceptance interval to be widened the bioequivalence study must be of a replicate design where it has been demonstrated that the within-subject variability for Cmax of the reference compound in the study is >30%.

(my emphases)

Note the subtle difference CV >30% to the one generally used (CV 30%). From the table in the GL, it’s clear that 0.760 – rather than ln(1.25)/sqrt(ln(0.3²+1)) – should be used. Should we round another two times (both the CL and the acceptance limits to two decimal places) – in analogy to Section 4.1.8?

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d_labes
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Berlin, Germany,
2011-01-26 10:39
(5223 d 09:39 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 6490
Views: 4,916
 

 Rounding vanished into thin air

Dear Helmut,

IMHO generally it would be "Good mathematical practice" not to round intermediate results. At least I was teached this in my very first courses during studying chemistry. Maybe statisticians in England or wherever have another view arosen from their daily handling of errors of all kind :cool:.

Theoretical statistician. A second class mathematician who imagines that he is a first class statistician.
Applied statistician. A second class statistician who imagines that he is a first class scientist.
Medical statistician. A second class scientist without any imagination.
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❝ From the table in the GL, it’s clear that 0.760 – rather than ln(1.25)/sqrt(ln(0.3²+1)) – should be used.


Seems right, beside the fact that the differences to the 'exact' formula are only marginal (+1 in the last decimal if % is used) and should not have any practical impact.

May be the whole story is a bit hair-splitting as always with us.
The guideline does not adress at any time that k is connected to the scaling standard error s0 or CV0 via the well known formula you give above. Eventually they even don't know this formula :-D. They formulate the widening via Boddy's formula exp(+k*sWR).
In that sense they haven't defined a regulatory s0 or CV0 but rather a regulatory k. Thus rounding is spirited off in a magical way if we accept this view.

Take k=0.760 to make your regulator feel confident that you accept his competence to define it that :love:. Don't forget the zero in reporting k!

BTW: The Americans are a little bit smarter or nearer to the theory in defining a s0=0.25 and using log(1.25)/s0 as BEL for
-BEL <TR)/sWR < BEL .
Aside from the fact that the value 0.25 is not so well chosen in leading to the already discussed discontinuity at CV=30%.
BTW2: In the literature about scABE you can find our s0 to various degrees of precision f.i. 0.29, 0.294 or 0.2936. This in turn leads to k=0.769, 0.759 or 0.760 with 3 decimals.

❝ Should we round another two times (both the CL and the acceptance limits to two decimal places) – in analogy to Section 4.1.8?


I would do so if 0.760 is accepted.

Regards,

Detlew
Helmut
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Vienna, Austria,
2011-01-26 11:55
(5223 d 08:24 ago)

@ d_labes
Posting: # 6491
Views: 5,155
 

 Rounding vanished into thin air

Dear D. Labes!

❝ […] not to round intermediate results.


Well, that’s what I learned too.

❝ May be the whole story is a bit hair-splitting as always with us.


Yes, grumpy old men as usual.

So I will retreat to 0.760 and round everywhere to two decimal places. Until I’ll succeed in convincing Pharsight to modify Phoenix/WinNonlin’s output (which is based on full precision and textual like “Failed to show average bioequivalence for confidence=xx and percent=yy” or “Average bioequivalence shown for confidence=xx and percent=yy”) I’ll have to write an SOP stating ‘Delete the verbatim BE assessment from the output because it might contradict rounded results and provoke questions’. ;-)

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ElMaestro
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Denmark,
2011-01-26 12:29
(5223 d 07:49 ago)

@ Helmut
Posting: # 6492
Views: 4,961
 

 Nitpicking galore

Dear HS,

in practice this will make a difference to very few studies. Never say never, of course, but the difference in acceptance range that the different options allow for the constant will only seldomly change the regulatory decision.

But if you insist, then I will take this view on it:
The guideline says:
"(...) For these parameters the 90% confidence interval for the ratio of the test and reference products should be contained within the acceptance interval of 80.00-125.00%."
Look closer. Did you see it? If EMA's wish is to work with two decimals on the acceptance range then so be it. Then they could have chosen to write that constant with two decimals. However, working with "X decimals" is in itself dubious to some. In a mathematical sense when uncertainty is involved it might make a bit more sense to work with X significant digits. The EMA could have said they want the CI's with X signif. digits on both ends and hence also specified the constant with X significant digits. This would at least follow some stringency.
Coincidentially the last digit in the constant is 0 so specifying with two or three decimals (or sigdigs) does not make much of a difference anyway.

Pass or fail!
ElMaestro
Helmut
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Vienna, Austria,
2011-01-26 13:06
(5223 d 07:12 ago)

@ ElMaestro
Posting: # 6493
Views: 5,017
 

 Nitpicking galore

Ahoy ElMaestro!

Agree. Lesson learned. Will take everything literally. Just checked three other pieces of software; like stated above it’s time to write SOPs to remove text from the output (always based on data in full precision which might contradict rounded results).

Kinetica 5.0.1: Can conclude equivalence.
EquivTest/PK: Both one-sided tests reject the null hypothesis, so equivalence to within the specified equivalence bounds can be claimed.
bear 2.5.3: Because all P values are less than 0.05, we will reject the null hypothesis (Ho).

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