Lucas ★ Brazil, 2014-02-07 12:41 (4113 d 12:01 ago) Posting: # 12362 Views: 18,779 |
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Hi everybody. ANVISA (Brazil's regulatory agency) is now studying the possibility of accepting EMA's method for scaling the BE acceptance interval based on the variability of the reference medication. So we are struggling a little bit in the sample size calculation, since it is very new to us. We have always used PASS for sample size calculation, for the standard BE studies, and did not manage to reproduce the results of PowerTOST calculations for RSABE. Is a whole different calculus? For example, when I try to calculate a sample size for a full replicate crossover design (TRTR, RTRT) considering a true ratio of 0.95, a target power of 80% and a reference ISCV of 63%, in PASS I got 28 subjects (considering the equivalence limits of 69.84%–143.19%) and in PowerTOST I got 22 subjects. Can you guys help me with that? Should I throw away my PASS? ![]() Edit: Category changed. [Helmut] |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-02-07 15:21 (4113 d 09:21 ago) @ Lucas Posting: # 12365 Views: 17,189 |
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Hi Lucas, welcome to the forum. ![]() ❝ ANVISA […] is now studying the possibility of accepting EMA's method for scaling the BE acceptance interval based on the variability of the reference medication. Interesting. ❝ So we […] did not manage to reproduce the results of PowerTOST calculations for RSABE. Is a whole different calculus? Yes, since the method is aggregate (scaling for CVWR >30% with a 50% cap, ratio with 80–125%) you cannot estimate the sample size directly, but have to use simulations – for some background see the paper* by the two Lászlós. Therefore, PASS (or NQuery Advisor as well) cannot do the job. ❝ […] when I try to calculate a sample size for a full replicate crossover design (TRTR, RTRT) considering a true ratio of 0.95, a target power of 80% and a reference ISCV of 63%, in PASS I got 28 subjects (considering the equivalence limits of 69.84%–143.19%) and in PowerTOST I got 22 subjects. In PowerTOST (EMA’s method) you have to use the function sampleN.scABEL() , not sampleN.TOST() with the scaled acceptance range.
HVDs/HVDPs are also nasty when it comes to the ratio. I would not suggest to assume a ratio of 95% (it jumps around between studies like crazy). I generally use 90%, which in your case would mean 34 subjects. ❝ Should I throw away my PASS? When it comes to reference-scaling, yes. PS: Where does your 63% come from? If you have done a fully replicated pilot study (RTRT|TRTR or just three periods RTR|TRT) calculate CVWT as well. Sometimes the reference is an awful product and the test is substantially better. You’ll get a reward for that (the CI will be narrower). In PowerTOST you can give both CVs as a vector (test’s first). Let’s say CVWT 45% and CVWR 63%.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Lucas ★ Brazil, 2014-02-07 17:49 (4113 d 06:52 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 12369 Views: 17,055 |
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Hi Helmut! ❝ In I was using sampleN.RSABE . Thanks for the advice! ![]() ❝ PS: Where does your 63% come from? If you have done a fully replicated pilot study (RTRT|TRTR or just three periods RTR|TRT) calculate CVWT as well. Sometimes the reference is an awful product and the test is substantially better. It was provided by the sponsor, but it was not obtained from a replicate design. So they do not have the actual WR nor the WT, but expect it to be equal or less than that. I read the paper that you provided, it is going to help us study more this scaling thing. Hey Detlew. ❝ Unfortunately I can't reproduce your numbers. Could you please post the code (function calls) you have use with PowerTOST? sampleN.RSABE(CV=.63,design="2x2x4",regulator="EMA", targetpower=.8) But as pointed out by Helmut, I used the wrong code. ❝ For the 2x2x4 design the PASS calculations are moreover based on a model including carry-over. In today's time no one will use such an model. I'm sorry, but we may be a little outdated down here then. We do include carry-over in our replicate studies. Where can I find more info about that to update our knowledge? Thank you guys for the help! |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-02-07 18:12 (4113 d 06:30 ago) @ Lucas Posting: # 12370 Views: 17,293 |
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Hi Lucas! ❝ ❝ For the 2x2x4 design the PASS calculations are moreover based on a model including carry-over. In today's time no one will use such an model. ❝ ❝ I'm sorry, but we may be a little outdated down here then. We do include carry-over in our replicate studies. May I ask which code you are using? ❝ Where can I find more info about that to update our knowledge? Well, this goody… S Senn You will find some stuff (and linked references) in the forum. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Lucas ★ Brazil, 2014-02-07 18:42 (4113 d 05:59 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 12371 Views: 16,937 |
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Helmut ❝ May I ask which code you are using? We use Pharsight's Phoenix, and not R or SAS. ❝ If there is a true sequence effect (or more precisely unequal carry-over) you can’t do anything in the analysis. The treatment estimate will be biased. Yes, I understand that, but did not get why it should be withdrawn from the model, because then how am I supposed to know when a carry-over effect took place... Well that's a discussion for another topic and probably has already been done here. There is no need for answering that again here, I'll just search the forum. Thanks again guys, see ya. |
Shuanghe ★★ Spain, 2014-02-10 18:11 (4110 d 06:30 ago) @ Lucas Posting: # 12383 Views: 16,876 |
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Hi Lucas, ❝ ...then how am I supposed to know when a carry-over effect took place... check predose concentration on period 2 or later periods if you have > 2 periods. In general carryover shouldn't be any problem if your washout is long enough. — All the best, Shuanghe |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-02-07 15:37 (4113 d 09:04 ago) @ Lucas Posting: # 12366 Views: 17,112 |
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Hi Lucas! ❝ ANVISA (Brazil's regulatory agency) is now studying the possibility of accepting EMA's method for scaling the BE acceptance interval based on the variability of the reference medication. Fine for you. That minimizes the burden for you in case of HVD/HVDP. ❝ So we are struggling a little bit in the sample size calculation, since it is very new to us. We have always used PASS for sample size calculation, for the standard BE studies, and did not manage to reproduce the results of PowerTOST calculations for RSABE. Is a whole different calculus? For example, when I try to calculate a sample size for a full replicate crossover design (TRTR, RTRT) considering a true ratio of 0.95, a target power of 80% and a reference ISCV of 63%, in PASS I got 28 subjects (considering the equivalence limits of 69.84%-143.19%) and in PowerTOST I got 22 subjects. Unfortunately I can't reproduce your numbers. Could you please post the code (function calls) you have use with PowerTOST? You are right in guessing that PowerTOST and PASS uses different calculus. In case of 'usual' power for replicate studies the difference is that PowerTOST uses by default exact calculation of the power via Owen's Q-function. PASS uses here an approximation via shifted central t-distribution. For the 2x2x4 design the PASS calculations are moreover based on a model including carry-over. In today's time no one will use such an model. For reference scaled ABE PASS don't has a module AFAIK. At least the versions I have seen so far. The use of the usual power calculation with simply plugging in the widened BE acceptance ranges from the EMA guidance is only a very rough approximation to the problem. The respective functions in PowerTOST dealing with scaled ABE ( sampleN.scABEL() for the EMA approach, sampleN.RSABE() for the FDA) tackle the problem by an other way: power calculation via simulations. See the PDF "Implementation details of the power calculations via simulations for scaled ABE" in the doc sub-directory of the R-package for more details. Moreover I highly recommend you the search function of the forum. We had some discussions here concerning that problem. ❝ Should I throw away my PASS? When it comes to reference-scaling, yes. When it comes to replicate designs, also yes if you are interested in an exact solution. Ups. Helmut was faster than me, as always ![]() — Regards, Detlew |
kumarnaidu ★ Mumbai, India, 2014-04-18 15:38 (4043 d 10:04 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 12858 Views: 16,480 |
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Hi all, I have estimated one sample size for partial reference replicated study below. By considering 12 dropout total sample size will be 54+12=66. I have used CV from our earlier in-house study (calculated from Swr). +++++++++++ Equivalence test - TOST +++++++++++ Now CRO has given me the same sample size but with different justification. They kept power 90%, CV=0.34 (from literature). Sample size=49+17=66. In our earlier study we had 9 dropouts out of 66. According to them they cannot use my justification because we will be in trouble if number of dropouts will get exceeds from 12 and in that case we will have subjects <54 (calculated by me). Then what is correct here ? I am confused. — Kumar Naidu |
Dr_Dan ★★ Germany, 2014-04-18 21:29 (4043 d 04:13 ago) @ kumarnaidu Posting: # 12859 Views: 16,419 |
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Dear Kumar Naidu To get things clear: You are the sponsor of the study and the CRO is the service provider. If you have a reasonable sample size estimation and if you want to pay for 66 subjects then the CRO should perform the study as you suggest unless they have reasonable objections. In case you anticipate a formulation difference of <5% and a power of 80% then the sample size solely depends on the intra-subject variability. This variability is not carved in stone. It is up to you to assume if the true value is rather 42% or 34%. At the end it is the responsibility of the sponsor. I hope this helps. Kind regards Dr_Dan — Kind regards and have a nice day Dr_Dan |
kumarnaidu ★ Mumbai, India, 2014-04-19 08:04 (4042 d 17:37 ago) @ Dr_Dan Posting: # 12860 Views: 16,422 |
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Thanks Dr_Dan for your valuable comments. My concern is just the number of dropouts they have kept. And according to me we should give priority to our in-house data for sample size estimation not published literature. Because the power of the study will ultimately suffer if the observed CV > assumed CV and this is same as getting more dropouts than assumed. — Kumar Naidu |
Astea ★★ Russia, 2015-06-25 03:14 (3610 d 22:28 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 14982 Views: 14,698 |
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Dear All! I like the giraffe finally understood the power of scaled approach and I am shocked by the required sample size... Does it mean that we DO NOT need more than 40 subjects for ANY HVD with CV 30-60% bearing in mind just GMR about 90-110% in four period replicate study? In order to compare sampleN.TOST unscaled results with sampleN.scABEL I calculated several points for CV in the range 0.3-0.6, assuming thetha0=0.9, design="2x2x4". The results of sampleN.scABEL naturally coincides with those of Tóthfalusi et Endrényi (in brackets): CV 0.3 34 (35) As far as I know sampleN.scABEL simulates studies to get the target power so it would be erroneously just to calculate sample size using sampleN.TOST and scale theta1 and theta2, wouldn't it? The graph for sampleN.scABEL results has a natural minimum at CV=50% (as far as I understand it is because of the EMA limit on scale). The difference between unscaled and scaled results is drastic. It doesn't fit in my head because there exist replicate studies completed with more than 50 subjects... It turns that it was redundantly? ![]() |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2015-06-25 11:19 (3610 d 14:23 ago) @ Astea Posting: # 14984 Views: 14,747 |
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Dear Astea! I can't retrace why you are shocked that the sample size for scABEL is much lower than that of conventional average bioequivalence (ABE). Quote from the paper of the two László's *: "Both EMA and FDA developed the approaches for highly variable drugs in order to reduce the regulatory burden, i.e. to lower the required number of subjects in BE studies. The sample size tables in the Appendix demonstrate that both authorities achieve this goal." Your computations verify that statement ![]() BTW: Your statement that no more than 40 subjects are needed is only valid in your investigated CV range. CV=0.8 (80%) gives for your settings n=50. For the FDA recommended method (RSABE) and regulatory settings the sample sizes are even lower.
— Regards, Detlew |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2015-06-25 12:43 (3610 d 12:59 ago) @ Astea Posting: # 14986 Views: 14,464 |
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Dear Astea, I completely agree with the Detlew's post above. Let me explain some additional issues. ❝ As far as I know SampleN.scABEL simulates studies to get the target power so it would be erroneously just to calculate sample size using SampleN.TOST and scale thetha1 and theta2, wouldn't it? Absolutely! Please compare the results: sampleN.scABEL(theta0=0.90, CV=0.5, targetpower=0.8, design="2x2x4") and sampleN.TOST(alpha=0.05, targetpower=0.8, theta0=0.9, theta1=0.6984, theta2=1.4319, CV=0.50, design="2x2x4") ❝ It doesn't fit in my head because there exist replicate studies completed with more than 50 subjects... It turns that it was redundantly? That's not so easy... When you performed first study with replicate design in Russia, the Sponsor wasn't sure - is it possible to wide the limits or not. Even after "the carving in red book"... AFAIK now we can use all advantages of replicate designs in our studies, experts already approved some protocols with scABEL. From then onward no full replicate studies with 60 subjects for sartans ![]() The most illustrative graph you can find in the Helmut's lecture (slide 98) — Kind regards, Mittyri |
Astea ★★ Russia, 2015-06-25 15:54 (3610 d 09:47 ago) @ mittyri Posting: # 14991 Views: 14,424 |
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Thanks a lot for your explanations! It seems to blame the lack of education... — "Being in minority, even a minority of one, did not make you mad" |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2015-06-25 16:04 (3610 d 09:37 ago) @ Astea Posting: # 14992 Views: 14,535 |
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Dear Astea! ❝ Thanks a lot for your explanations! You are welcome. ❝ It seems to blame the lack of education... Don't worry to much. All this stuff is still more or less new for many of us. Also for regulatory bodies I strongly suppose. Remember that story concerning type I error of the scaled ABE approach. — Regards, Detlew |