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martin ★★ Austria, 2010-09-29 21:13 (5738 d 06:20 ago) Posting: # 5959 Views: 8,634 |
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dear all! I do have a question regarding handling of Cmax values <LOQ for statistical analyses. consider the following situation: - parallel group design with k study arms - all concentrations over time are <LOQ for ca. 40% of subjects (no Cmax available) what do you suggest for statistical comparison of Cmax values between study arms? - set Cmax at LOQ for these subjects - no statistical evaluation - statistical evaluation only for the subset of subjects with Cmax > LOQ which may bias results - ... any suggestions/recommendations are highly appreciated ! best regards martin |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-09-29 21:49 (5738 d 05:44 ago) @ martin Posting: # 5960 Views: 7,842 |
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Hi Martin! ❝ consider the following situation: ❝ - parallel group design with k study arms ❝ - all concentrations over time are <LOQ for ca. 40% of subjects (no ❝ Oops! ❝ what do you suggest for statistical comparison of Cmax values ❝ between study arms? ❝ - set Cmax at LOQ for these subjects ❝ - no statistical evaluation ❝ - statistical evaluation only for the subset of subjects with ❝ ❝ - ... To get into the right mood read this goody again. ![]() Did you anticipate something like this in the SAP? If not, it's not too late - but stop now and take a deep breath. It's important not to play around with the data until you have developed a statistical contingency plan (ideally an amended SAP). Now let's see:
* Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1921), Section 7: »Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.« (Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.)— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-09-30 01:20 (5738 d 02:13 ago) @ martin Posting: # 5963 Views: 7,605 |
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Dear Martin, ❝ - all concentrations over time are <LOQ for ca. 40% of subjects (no ❝ It is not clear what the purpose of the trial is but I am willing to bet a monthly salary on the fact that the study report when reviewed by an assessor will not do much for you, whatever you do. The 40% being <LOQ is extremely unexpected unless everybody in your team had had a stroke the day the trial was planned (which I think is unlikely, but feel free to comment). For this reason, send out an auditor; do a for-cause audit to look at the trial itself and the bioanalysis. Make sure the auditor comes home to give you a really qualified idea of whether the observed problem is a real problem. I highly recommend you to use an auditor that looks for more than just missing signatures or misspelling on training records. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Ohlbe ★★★ France, 2010-09-30 11:14 (5737 d 16:19 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 5964 Views: 7,530 |
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Dear El Maestro, ❝ The 40% being <LOQ is extremely unexpected unless everybody in your team had had a stroke the day the trial was planned Couldn't it happen in a first-in-man with ascending doses, in the lowest dose group ? ❝ I highly recommend you to use an auditor that looks for more than just missing signatures or misspelling on training records. ![]() Regards Ohlbe — Regards Ohlbe |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2010-09-30 15:39 (5737 d 11:54 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 5966 Views: 7,516 |
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Dear Ohlbe and all! ❝ ❝ The 40% being <LOQ is extremely unexpected unless everybody in your ❝ ❝ team had had a stroke the day the trial was planned ❝ ❝ Couldn't it happen in a first-in-man with ascending doses, in the lowest ❝ dose group ? We will wait for Martin returning, but I would bet another month's salary that his 'subjects' did not belong to the species Homo sapiens. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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martin ★★ Austria, 2010-09-30 23:53 (5737 d 03:40 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 5968 Views: 7,594 |
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dear all! thank you very much for your valuable comments. HS won the bet; its a toxicokinetic (TK) study which characterize ADME/exposure in toxicity species with doses at toxicological levels. Toxicokinetics can be regarded as an expansion of PK as it is rather unrealistic assuming similar PK processes with toxicological doses than with therapeutic doses as the ability of the body to cope with a compound is extended to the limit (Welling, 1995) best regards martin Welling PG (1995). Difference between Pharmacokinetics and Toxicokinetics. Toxicol Pathol 23(2):143-147. |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2010-10-01 13:49 (5736 d 13:44 ago) @ martin Posting: # 5969 Views: 7,543 |
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Dear Martin! I must controvert Helmut's modification of Wittgenstein. There are methods out there in the statistical universe by which we can "rechnen" with data having values known only to the extent of being lower than a certain value (or higher than a certain value or known only in an interval). I would suggest you to look for statistical methods for censored / truncated data. Unfortunately I have no personal experience / knowledge with such methods. Thus I can't direct you to a ready to use solution. But here is a point of view with literature from the field of environment sciences. D. Helsel Much Ado About Next to Nothing: Incorporating Nondetects in Science The Annals of Occupational Hygiene Dennis Helsel has also written a book: "Nondetects And Data Analysis: Statistics for Censored Environmental Data" Wiley 2004 ISBN: 978-0-471-67173-2 The methods described are implemented in the R package NADA. See http://www.practicalstats.com/nada/downloads_files/NADAforR_Examples.pdf for examples. ing for "non-detects statistics censored data" will give you much more interesting material. Among them this one showing that substitution of LOQ is not the best idea.Hope this helps. — Regards, Detlew |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-10-01 19:53 (5736 d 07:41 ago) @ Ohlbe Posting: # 5976 Views: 7,431 |
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Dear Ohlbe, ❝ Couldn't it happen in a first-in-man with ascending doses, in the lowest dose group ? Yes, that sounds just about right and intuitive. Would it perhaps even be possible to say it should only happen under those circumstances? Yeah ok, at the time I am posting this we know it is an animal TK study, but disregarding this fact, I cannot think of any other situation where it could reasonably be expected to occur. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Dr_Dan ★★ Germany, 2010-09-30 11:52 (5737 d 15:41 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 5965 Views: 7,603 |
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Dear all I totally agree with ElMaestro ❝ It is not clear what the purpose of the trial is but I am willing to bet a monthly salary on the fact that the study report when reviewed by an assessor will not do much for you, whatever you do. According to guideline CPMP/QWP/EWP/1401/98 Rev. 1 "The lower limit of quantitation should be 1/20 of Cmax or lower". If you can not detect any plasma levels in 40% of your subjects the you will have on the one hand a drug with a high inter-subject variability and on the other hand an analytical method which is not sensitive enough to cover the whole range of plasma concentrations. This is the most critical point and you will not convince any assessor with a statistical evaluation when your analytical method is not suitable except you can show that you had 40% of non-compliers. Kind regards Dan — Kind regards and have a nice day Dr_Dan |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2010-10-01 20:13 (5736 d 07:20 ago) @ martin Posting: # 5977 Views: 7,429 |
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Dear Martin, I was thinking a little further about this. OK, admittedly, my moments of thinkings are typically the moments when things go seriously pear-shaped for me. Anyways, how about this: do nothing out of the ordinary. You have a system for your chromatography, recording of data, getting data into your spreadsheet, getting the data analysed and getting the results printed, saved, documented. Each of these steps is (should be) an objective process. In the first steps your output is not of the 71.93-kind but of the "<LOQ"-kind (or NA or BLQ or DOA or whateever) for some of the data. Unless you have pre-specified otherwise, I think it you should at least consider inputting exactly what comes out of the first steps and into the next steps. I know this is brutal and perhaps brainless, all depending on your coding, but it might be per protocol. All validated software has default methods to handle missing or unexpected inputs. You might not get anything meaningful out of it, but you have handled it objectively as prescribed and cannot be nailed for attempts to prune the data prior to analysis. As someone once said: Garbage in, garbage out. After you obtain garbage out, I think you have pretty free hands to apply other types of common sense to your problem. I could be wrong, but I think I would do this with a new protocol/sap rather than trying to modify the old one(s). Let it be known, I am not a fan of garbage in but it is darn hard to plan against all types of eventualities. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |


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ing for "non-detects statistics censored data" will give you much more interesting material. Among them 