BEQool ★ 2024-06-27 14:25 (281 d 10:14 ago) Posting: # 24042 Views: 3,615 |
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Hello all! Would anyone know what are the equations to calculate standard deviation of a study for different study designs (2x2, 2x3x3, 2x2x3, 2x2x4)? For example, standard error of a study for a given parameter is given in Phoenix Winnonlin with "Diff_SE" in the "Average Bioequivalence" tab but I cannot either find or calculate its standard deviation. I assume it has something to do with coefficients and number of subjects in sequences like in known.designs() but I cant get my head around it ![]() BEQool |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2024-06-27 15:29 (281 d 09:10 ago) @ BEQool Posting: # 24043 Views: 3,078 |
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Hi BEQool, ❝ Would anyone know what are the equations to calculate standard deviation of a study … — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
BEQool ★ 2024-06-28 09:35 (280 d 15:04 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 24045 Views: 3,058 |
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❝ ❝ Would anyone know what are the equations to calculate standard deviation of a study … ❝ I’m not sure what you mean by that. Can you reword/explain please? Sorry for the confusion, I meant standard deviation of a difference between treatments for a certain parameter. Now that I am thinking about it again, is it just the square root of MSE and therefore doesnt depend on the design? BEQool |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2024-06-30 00:08 (279 d 00:31 ago) @ BEQool Posting: # 24046 Views: 2,993 |
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Hi BEQool, ❝ Would anyone know what are the equations to calculate standard deviation of a study for different study designs (2x2, 2x3x3, 2x2x3, 2x2x4)? ❝ For example, standard error of a study for a given parameter is given in Phoenix Winnonlin with "Diff_SE" in the "Average Bioequivalence" tab but I cannot either find or calculate its standard deviation. ❝ I assume it has something to do with coefficients and number of subjects in sequences like in If I am not mistaken, you are looking for the standard error of the treatment difference, which is used to construct a 1-2*alpha Confidence interval. I agree, this is not all that easy. One thing is to apply an easy equation from Chow & Liu which works well in the case of a simple 222BE design, but it can get more obscure if the design gets a little complex. For a general approach, you can derive the covariance matrix, V, for the fixed effects. If X is your model matrix (=design matrix) and you have fitted your model and extracted your MSE from that model, then you simple have V=MSE*(X'X)-1 If treatment A is indicated by the column a in X, and treatment B is in the column b of X, then V[a,a] is the SE of A and V[b,b] is the SE of B. V[a,b]=V[b,a] is the covariance of the two, hence: SEdiff=SEA+SEB-2CovAB If you program in R here is a little snippet for you to play with, and it may be handy for you to have the emmeans package installed. R turns out to have a very handy function called vcov which directly gives us V without us having to do the underlying matrix algebra. I hope the following is illustrative:
library(emmeans) You can extend this as necessary. Be careful about intercepts and the order of factors in your lm. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
BEQool ★ 2024-07-01 09:25 (277 d 15:14 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 24047 Views: 3,059 |
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Hello ElMaestro, thank you for your in-depth answer, I will take a deeper look into it. ❝ If I am not mistaken, you are looking for the standard error of the treatment difference, which is used to construct a 1-2*alpha Confidence interval. I am not exactly looking for the standard error of the treatment difference but instead for its standard deviation. I am using Phoenix WinNonlin and standard error of the treatment difference is already given with "Diff_SE". I would like to find out how to get (if it is possible) standard deviation of the treatment difference from the standard error of the treatment difference "Diff_SE" (or is there some other way?). BEQool |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2024-07-01 09:38 (277 d 15:01 ago) @ BEQool Posting: # 24048 Views: 2,975 |
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Hi BEQool, ❝ I am not exactly looking for the standard error of the treatment difference but instead for its standard deviation. I am using Phoenix WinNonlin and standard error of the treatment difference is already given with "Diff_SE". I would like to find out how to get (if it is possible) standard deviation of the treatment difference from the standard error of the treatment difference "Diff_SE" (or is there some other way?). Yeah, that is confusing, too. We have all kinds of standard deviations, but the one we usually learn about is the standard deviation of a sample. But if we have a sample, then we also have a mean from it, and the standard deviation of that mean is called a standard error. When statisticians derive a standard deviation of a mean (in contrast to a sample), then they tend to call that a standard error. My suspicion is they are solely doing it to confuse people like me. So, I think the answer to your question is that the SE of the difference is the standard deviation of the difference. I can't help with WNL at all. What it does, how it does it and how it presents results to the user is entirely outside my competences. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
BEQool ★ 2024-07-01 10:41 (277 d 13:58 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 24049 Views: 2,937 |
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❝ My suspicion is they are solely doing it to confuse people like me. Yes you are not alone in this ![]() ❝ So, I think the answer to your question is that the SE of the difference is the standard deviation of the difference. ❝ I can't help with WNL at all. What it does, how it does it and how it presents results to the user is entirely outside my competences. Thank you! I will also ask this on Certara forum if they have different perspective. BEQool |
mittyri ★★ Russia, 2024-07-01 13:18 (277 d 11:21 ago) @ BEQool Posting: # 24051 Views: 2,978 |
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Hi BEQool, ❝ I will also ask this on Certara forum if they have different perspective. ![]() ElMaestro is right — Kind regards, Mittyri |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2024-07-03 15:37 (275 d 09:02 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 24060 Views: 2,831 |
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Hi all, typo above: ❝ SEdiff=SEA+SEB-2CovAB It should be more like: SEdiff2=VarA+VarB-2CovAB — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |