elba.romero ☆ Guadalajara, Mexico, 2013-07-02 07:08 (4311 d 18:20 ago) Posting: # 10907 Views: 44,725 |
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Dear Bear users: I am interested to submit to the Secretary of Health in Mexico the first report of a clinical study using BEAR (2x2x2 crossover design). The preliminary review of my report indicates that I require verifying that my results are valid and it was recommended that I must demonstrate through a reference dataset the software performance. I have been searching since then... (NIST statistical Reference Dataset). Any help would be really appreciated, Regards, Elba Romero University of Guadalajara Mexico |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-07-02 17:44 (4311 d 07:44 ago) @ elba.romero Posting: # 10914 Views: 42,400 |
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¡Hola Elba! ❝ The preliminary review of my report indicates that I require verifying that my results are valid and it was recommended that I must demonstrate through a reference dataset the software performance. OK, validation makes sense. I wonder whether your agency would have also asked you if you submitted data evaluated by commercial software. ![]() You should quote the statement of bear’s site: Validation: We have tested bear with one of BE dataset and found that all output results to be the same as those generated by commercial software (like NCA using WinNonlin and ANOVA with SAS). Personally I use data sets from these references:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2013-07-03 05:10 (4310 d 20:18 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 10917 Views: 42,050 |
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Dear Helmut and Elba, So there is no "reference dataset" at all. Is that possible that we can have some kind of "reference datasets" like NIST StRD Nonlinear Regression Datasets or similar? Otherwise, in order to validate bear, users will need to pay for commercial computer programs. If so, why not just use commercial computer programs directly? ❝ [...] You should quote the statement of bear’s site: Validation: We have tested bear with one of BE dataset and found that all output results to be the same as those generated by commercial software (like NCA using WinNonlin and ANOVA with SAS). We had a pdf file for this and the link was missing unintentionally. I will put it back again. Sorry about this. However, it was not using the "reference dataset." pretty sure. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
elba.romero ☆ Guadalajara, Mexico, 2013-07-03 07:19 (4310 d 18:09 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 10919 Views: 42,122 |
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Dear Yung-jee Lee, ❝ So there is no "reference dataset" at all. Is that possible that we can have some kind of "reference datasets" like NIST StRD Nonlinear Regression Datasets or similar? I have already written to NIST StRD asking for this type of datasets. I am still waiting for an answer... I was wondering if there is any initiative in this forum to develop "public data reference" in order to evaluate the performance of BEAR (or another package). Thank you for your help, Regards, Elba Romero |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2013-07-03 15:11 (4310 d 10:17 ago) @ elba.romero Posting: # 10926 Views: 41,850 |
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Dear Elba, ❝ [...] ❝ I have already written to NIST StRD asking for this type of datasets. I am still waiting for an answer... Well, I don't think NIST StRD will do that. But will be happy to know their response. ❝ I was wondering if there is any initiative in this forum to develop "public data reference" in order to evaluate the performance of BEAR (or another package). Sounds do-able. May need more opinions and time to plan it. There are plenty BE/BA guru members in this Forum from worldwide. They should be able to figure out how-to sooner or later. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-07-03 18:32 (4310 d 06:56 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 10930 Views: 41,962 |
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Dear Yung-jin & Elba, ❝ ❝ I was wondering if there is any initiative in this forum to develop "public data reference" in order to evaluate the performance of BEAR (or another package). ❝ Sounds do-able. May need more opinions and time to plan it. There are plenty BE/BA guru members in this Forum from worldwide. They should be able to figure out how-to sooner or later. I’m a little bit short in time, but I give you some ideas on what I have done back in the dark-ages validating my 60,000-lines Pascal code. ![]() I’ll split it up into two parts: NCA and BE. NCA ► Data-limits
► Cmax/tmax
► λz-estimation
► Trapezoidal rules
► AUC0-∞
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2013-07-04 10:06 (4309 d 15:22 ago) (edited on 2013-07-04 12:20) @ Helmut Posting: # 10935 Views: 41,803 |
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Dear Helmut, Thank you for calling me "Yung-jin" again. Haha... ❝ [...] ❝ I’m a little bit short in time, but I give you some ideas on what I have done back in the dark-ages validating my 60,000-lines Pascal code. ❝ I’ll split it up into two parts: NCA and BE. ❝ [...] Marvelous! I think I can code all these stuffs as a part of bear. It's just a function in R. Then users can generate the validation outputs if they need the validation report. The output will contain two parts: one is the results (with calculated answers) obtained from R (not necessarily from bear), and the other is manual calculation or the method other than using R (validation) which has been already done like you did in this thread [edited]. What do you think about this idea? ❝ [...] ❝ ❝ BE (coming sooner or later…) I know. Take you time. No hurry at all, as we still wait for the response from NIST... — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-07-04 15:18 (4309 d 10:10 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 10937 Views: 41,898 |
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Hi Yung-jin, ❝ Thank you for calling me "Yung-jin" again. Haha... Sorry for using your family name in my previous posts (removed…). I thoughtlessly copied it from your signature. Didn’t want to be that formal. ❝ I think I can code all these stuffs as a part of bear. It's just a function in R. […] What do you think about this idea? Great! Since it is the responsibility of users to validate the software no need to hurry. I would suggest to start a new thread collecting ideas: Which data sets, results with other software (or even wetware: pencil, paper, brain), etc. Maybe the Software category would fit best because this issue is not limited to Edit: Category changed. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-07-03 16:28 (4310 d 09:00 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 10929 Views: 42,011 |
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Dear Yung-jin, ❝ So there is no "reference dataset" at all. Is that possible that we can have some kind of "reference datasets" like NIST StRD Nonlinear Regression Datasets or similar? If Elba will succeed in convincing NIST of its importance we will have one… ![]() Note that NIST’s datasets do not necessarily represent the “truth”, only the “best-available” solutions. Quote from the background information: The generated datasets are designed to challenge specific computations. Real-world data include challenging datasets such as the Thurber problem, and more benign datasets such as Misra1a. The certified values are "best-available" solutions, obtained using 128-bit precision and confirmed by at least two different algorithms and software packages using analytic derivatives. ❝ Otherwise, in order to validate bear, users will need to pay for commercial computer programs. Why? If you compare bear’s results with the published ones you don’t have to have the software which generated them. P.S.: Yung-jin added the validation to bear’s website (162 pages, 4.45 MB). Now it’s up to the user to compare the different programs’ output. BTW: WinNonlin Pro 4.01, but which versions of bear and SAS? — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2013-07-04 01:47 (4309 d 23:41 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 10931 Views: 41,874 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ If Elba will succeed in convincing NIST of its importance we will have one… Agree. ❝ Note that NIST’s datasets do not necessarily represent the “truth”, only the “best-available” solutions. [...] I see. But it has been good enough for comparing nonlinear regression software. ❝ Why? If you compare bear’s results with the published ones you don’t have to have the software which generated them. To purchase commercial software to do validation first. The textbook or published papers may have final results in Tables for their dataset, but do not have whole detailed output results.❝ P.S.: Yung-jin added the validation to bear’s website (162 pages, 4.45 MB). Now it’s up to the user to compare the different programs’ output. BTW: WinNonlin Pro 4.01, but which versions of bear and SAS? bear was v2.4.0 (p.92) and SAS should be v9.1.3 I guessed when I was at KMU (university license). — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2013-07-04 02:45 (4309 d 22:43 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 10932 Views: 41,805 |
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Dear Yung-jin, ❝ ❝ Note that NIST’s datasets do not necessarily represent the “truth”, only the “best-available” solutions. […] ❝ I see. But it has been good enough for comparing nonlinear regression software. Sure. It’s nice to have results obtained in 128-bit precision. Important for ‘flat’ SSQ-surfaces where rounding may be an issue. ❝ ❝ Why? [ ❝ […] The textbook or published papers may have Agree. The most detailed one is #1 from this post. ❝ ❝ BTW: WinNonlin Pro 4.01, but which versions of bear and SAS? ❝ bear was v2.4.0 (p.92) and SAS should be v9.1.3 I guessed when I was at KMU (university license). THX! — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
elba.romero ☆ Guadalajara, Mexico, 2013-07-03 07:10 (4310 d 18:18 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 10918 Views: 41,944 |
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¡Hola Helmut! It is nice to see spanish words once in a while. ❝ I wonder whether your agency would have also asked you if you submitted data evaluated by a commercial software. Not in this case! The Agency has started to learn about other tools ![]() ❝ You should quote the statement of... I'll take into account. ❝ Personally I use data sets from these references... Thank you for all the references! Bear Welcome to Mexico!!! Regards, Elba Romero University of Guadalajara |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-06 04:24 (3850 d 21:04 ago) @ elba.romero Posting: # 13653 Views: 39,522 |
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Dear Elba and all, ❝ […] 2x2x2 crossover design. […] I require verifying that my results are valid and it was recommended that I must demonstrate through a reference dataset the software performance. I have been searching since then... Took a while… In the meantime some of the usual suspects of the forum have done that.* You can expect more to come (2-group parallel ☐)… Enjoy. ![]()
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-06 15:20 (3850 d 10:08 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13654 Views: 39,141 |
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Respectable highly distinguished honourable sir, ❝ Took a while… In the meantime some of the usual suspects of the forum have done that.* What??? You cannot be serious. ❝
What a load of absolute garbage. I know some of the authors and to tell the truth I have no idea why they would want to waste anyone's time with such a pile of nonsense. On board my proud vessel we just hit the auto-IQ/OQ/PQ scripts and we never had any problems. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-06 19:08 (3850 d 06:20 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13655 Views: 39,123 |
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Ahoy, my Capt’n! ❝ What??? Great! ![]() ❝ On board my proud vessel we just hit the auto-IQ/OQ/PQ scripts and we never had any problems. ![]() Actually this was one of my favorite diving sites once I let go the anchor of my vessel. Nice slope followed by a drop-off. Now a grid of steel and a bunch of concrete blocks… BTW, I found another reference dataset (Supplemental examples to the veterinary BE guidance VICH GL52). Interesting that the guidance does not suggest rounding of the CI). Quote from the supp.: All correctly programmed analyzed data should give the following results (Tables 2 and 3). […]
I got for p (Sequence) 0.9529 (not 0.9527) and the CI as 0.9660–1.0766. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-06 19:31 (3850 d 05:57 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13656 Views: 39,000 |
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Hi Hötzi, ❝ BTW, I found another reference dataset (...) Great find, thanks for the link. Now, I couldn't help but note they reffed Potvin as well. Looks to me like their examples also include a Potvin B run. I am not a veterinarian but ... I think they got it wrong as they plugged in the observed GMR from stage 1 and not 0.95 for stage 2 dimensioning. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-06 21:05 (3850 d 04:23 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13657 Views: 39,323 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ Looks to me like their examples also include a Potvin B run. I am not a veterinarian but ... I think they got it wrong as they plugged in the observed GMR from stage 1 and not 0.95 for stage 2 dimensioning. Yes, that’s weird. Subsection II.D.3 of the guidance smells of copypasting from EMA’s GL (contrary to Method C which is generally suggested by the FDA). Furthermore, The plan to use a two-stage approach should be pre-specified in the protocol along with the number of animals to be included in each stage and the adjusted significance levels to be used for each of the analyses. I beg your pardon?Figure 1 of the supp. is Potvin’s B: […] sample size based on variance stage 1… But in the paragraph below:[…] sample size based on the information derived at Stage 1. But let’s continue: SCENARIO: For the sake of this example, we will use the following Stage 1 assumptions:
![]() However, let’s believe in Mr Pocock. library(PowerTOST) Brilliant! They must love a second stage. Some more stuff about inflation & power: library(Power2Stage) With this CV, T/R, n1, and 0.0294 there will be no inflation. But that’s not true for other combinations. Overall power ~85% (~27 of studies will proceed to the second stage). What if they want to adapt for the T/R of stage 1 (in the code above switch to usePE=TRUE )?Method B: alpha (s1/s2)= 0.0294 0.0294 Still no inflation, but the sample sizes ring the alarm bell. Old story. Full adaption rarely ‘works’ in BE. This time the entire output for power: Method B: alpha (s1/s2)= 0.0294 0.0294 Oops! In the worst case almost the entire population of India? In the spirit of Karalis / Macheras let’s add a futility criterion limiting the total sample size. OK, why not 100? No inflation; power: Method B: alpha (s1/s2)= 0.0294 0.0294 Might work. Still not what the guidance wants – pre-specified sample size in both stages. Will they accept a maximum total sample size as a futility criterion? Does one have to perform the second stage in the pre-specified sample size even if the calculated one is lower?
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-07 11:53 (3849 d 13:35 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13659 Views: 39,059 |
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Dear Helmut and Detlew, Congratulation for the published article and great to share. However I cannot click to browse the 'Electronic supplement material' from the link of pdf file. Do I miss anything there? ❝ Took a while… ❝ You can expect more to come (2-group parallel ☐)… Why jump into '2-group parallel'? What about replicate? Thanks in advance. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
nobody nothing 2014-10-07 12:59 (3849 d 12:29 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13660 Views: 39,016 |
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klick: https://dx.doi.org/10.1208/s12248-014-9661-0 ...down the page you see the files (.rft, .txt) PS: I use noscript addon, ymmv — Kindest regards, nobody |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-07 13:35 (3849 d 11:53 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 13661 Views: 39,078 |
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Dear nobody, Got it. Many thanks. ❝ https://dx.doi.org/10.1208/s12248-014-9661-0 ❝ ...down the page you see the files (.rft, .txt) — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
nobody nothing 2014-10-07 13:44 (3849 d 11:44 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13662 Views: 38,816 |
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...additional info: to make the R script in the .rtf file work, release one of the two options for mse from the comments ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-07 15:54 (3849 d 09:34 ago) @ nobody Posting: # 13665 Views: 39,002 |
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Hi nobody and all, the direct links below (in the public domain; you don’t have to buy the paper) ![]() Datasets:
❝ ...additional info: to make the R script in the .rtf file work, release one of the two options for mse from the comments THX for pointing that out! Remove the hash # in
As stated in the RTF’s title, note that the scripts have to be adjusted for the user’s directories and/or file names.
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-07 14:36 (3849 d 10:52 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13663 Views: 39,089 |
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Hello yjlee, ❝ Why jump into '2-group parallel'? What about replicate? 2-group parallel are probably still the second-most common BE design, I think, and that's to me quite a good argument for prioritising it. As you say, replicate designs are also relevant, but it would open up a can of worms:
Tricky, tricky, tricky. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-07 15:00 (3849 d 10:28 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13664 Views: 38,832 |
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Dear Elmaestro, ❝ 2-group parallel are probably still the second-most common BE design, I think, and that's to me quite a good argument for prioritising it. I see. Some posts about differences of replicate BE data analysis using WNL or SAS can be found in this forum. ❝ As you say, replicate designs are also relevant, but it would open up a can of worms: Wow! Sounds scaring. But very true. ❝ [...] "fm3 <- lmer(strength ~ (1|batch) + (1|batch:cask), Pastes)" and who really knows what all that "~" and "|" does for your ZGZt+R? If you use an option to do Kenward-Rogers are you then not complicant? And then there are the optimiser settings. And so forth. You're right. Still remains unsolved with R. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-07 16:47 (3849 d 08:41 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13666 Views: 38,943 |
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Hi Yung-jin, ❝ […] Some posts about differences of replicate BE data analysis using WNL or SAS can be found in this forum. ❝ […] Still remains unsolved with R. So far I do not know how to set up reference-scaling (FDA+EMA) in any software except SAS and Phoenix/WinNonlin. I’m not overly optimistic for R (see here; still current as of July 2014). — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-08 12:05 (3848 d 13:23 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13668 Views: 38,996 |
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Dear Helmut and Elmaestro, Thank you for your responses. I am thinking that your research works (incl. reference dataset and results of software validation) for BE/BA are very meaningful. Probably in some aspects (such as mixed model for replicate BE or RSABE) R is still not recognized (or acceptable) officially in BE/BA data analysis. However, if there are reference dataset and results of software validation available, it should be very helpful for program developers in the future. For me, I am still looking forward to seeing such reference dataset and software validation available for replicate BE, RSABE, TSD etc. (without R). It is not only for R package developers, but also for other statistical software developers such as SPSS/Minitab/Statistica etc.. Indeed, we cannot do it properly with R or other statistical software right now as you said. It does not mean that it cannot be solved in the future either. However, these reference dataset for all kinds of BE study design are absolutely required, IMHO. Except NIST StRD Nonlinear Regression Datasets as mentioned previously in this thread, there is another good example for data mining dataset repository at UCI. [edited] Quoted from Elmaestro 'I may be wrong, but...' ❝ So far I do not know how to set up reference-scaling (FDA+EMA) in any software except SAS and Phoenix/WinNonlin. I’m not overly optimistic for R (see here; still current as of July 2014). — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-09 02:26 (3847 d 23:02 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13671 Views: 38,748 |
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Dear Yung-jin, I tried to compile the job for Lieutenant Commander Data. See all the possible methods to explore:
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-09 10:09 (3847 d 15:19 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13673 Views: 38,603 |
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Dear Helmut, just one nitpickin' ❝ ...
— Regards, Detlew |
nobody nothing 2014-10-09 10:23 (3847 d 15:05 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13674 Views: 38,757 |
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...nope, this is classical open-source project for a forum/wiki with peer-review on-the-fly. Maybe in the end a scientific paper referencing data sets in the forum... ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-09 13:06 (3847 d 12:22 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13675 Views: 38,897 |
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Dear Helmut, Have you ever tried to add/change options of MAXITER (default is only 50; may consider to increase this value) and / or MAXFUNC (default is 150) with PROC MIXED when getting convergence failure for ABE? I did that with lme() in bear recently for dataset that failed to converge using the default number of iterations. It solved the problem of convergence failure. The function optimization of PROC MIXED is the Newton-Raphson algorithm. I don't know if it works or not with PROC MIXED. ❝ [...] ❝ • FDA ❝ • ABE ❝ • ❝ • ❝ • — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-09 13:52 (3847 d 11:36 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13676 Views: 39,883 |
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Hi yung-jin, Hi all, a few comments so far:
To explain what I mean by passing values by reference consider this example: Bar=function(X) - it will print 7 and not 8, as long as the function parameter is passed by value and not by reference. I simply need a way for the argument to be passed by reference so that Bar can change it and Foo can continue doing stuff on B once the change has happened. Plenty websites will discuss how to do it. But I am just ElMaestro and my brain is walnut-sized so I need more than a link to a website to understand it, please. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-09 14:18 (3847 d 11:10 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13677 Views: 38,621 |
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Dear Elmaestro, Exactly. No starting value can be set up with either PROC MIXED of SAS or lme() from package nlme of R. I still have no idea about which parameter is going to be optimized with both software. ❝ 1. Just read the documentation for the Proc Mixed settings; looks to me like it isn't possible at all to control starter values for the optimiser? That would be rather silly, if you ask me.[...] Silly? maybe. Probably it is not possible to do that or is not necessary to do that. Otherwise, it should not be that way. Need to sneak into and have a look at the source codes of package nlme. I did that before, but still with no luck to figure out yet. Even though we can find out, there is still nothing we can do. nlme is a very big and complicated package. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-10 10:35 (3846 d 14:53 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13684 Views: 38,387 |
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Dear Yung-jin, dear ElMaestro, ❝ Exactly. No starting value can be set up with either PROC MIXED of SAS or lme() from package nlme of R. ... Objection, Your Honor! At least for SAS. Just to cite from the SAS Help page of Proc MIXED: "PARMS Statement PARMS (value-list) ...</ options> ; The PARMS statement specifies initial values for the covariance parameters, or it requests a grid search over several values of these parameters. ..." For R I bet there is also some possibility. But don't know exactly. Eventually the function nlme() is what you need.— Regards, Detlew |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-10 13:44 (3846 d 11:44 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 13685 Views: 38,389 |
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Great d_labes, ❝ Thou shalt set swt=0.3274, swr=0.2727, sbt=0.5401, sbr=0.4993 for these divine settings will make the reml optimiser converge. And the Lord said unto John "Come forth, and receive eternal life". But John came fifth, and won a toaster. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-11 23:09 (3845 d 02:19 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 13688 Views: 38,668 |
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Dear Detlew, Thank you so much for point that out. Indeed, there is PARMS option for PROC MIXED. However, I still wonder how to set it up. Could you share the results (incl. codes) here with and without PARMS option to run PROC MIXED here? I don't have SAS and dataset to try this. ![]() ❝ [...] ❝ Objection, Your Honor! At least for SAS. ❝ Just to cite from the SAS Help page of Proc MIXED: ❝ "PARMS Statement ❝ ❝ ❝ ❝ The PARMS statement specifies initial values for the covariance parameters, or it requests a grid search over several values of these parameters. ..." not quite sure about this. ❝ For R I bet there is also some possibility. But don't know exactly. ❝ Eventually the function I did find that there is an option (start) in nlme(). This start option is an optional numeric vector, or list of initial estimates for the fixed effects and random effects. If declared as a numeric vector, it is converted internally to a list with a single component fixed, given by the vector. The fixed component is required, unless the model function inherits from class selfStart, in which case initial values will be derived from a call to nlsList... . So I don't think that this option (start) is for setting the initial values of covariance parameters. — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-11 23:18 (3845 d 02:10 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13689 Views: 38,514 |
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Hi Yung-jin, (if I may chime in) ❝ However, I still wonder how to set it up. Could you share the results (incl. codes) here with and without PARMS option to run PROC MIXED here? I don't have SAS and dataset to try this. ❝ ❝ The PARMS statement specifies initial values for the covariance parameters, or it requests a grid search over several values of these parameters. ..." Means: The PARMS statement gives you control of starter values for the random effects - these are the covariances. ❝ I did find that there is an option (start) in nlme(). This start option is ❝ ❝ So I don't think that this option (start) is for setting the initial values of covariance parameters. This is a bit mumbojumbo. As above, inits for the random effects might be what you are looking for but I don't know is meant by the list with a single component fixed. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-09 16:08 (3847 d 09:20 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13680 Views: 38,737 |
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Dear Yung-jin, ❝ Have you ever tried to add/change options of MAXITER (default is only 50; may consider to increase this value) and / or MAXFUNC (default is 150) with PROC MIXED when getting convergence failure for ABE? I’m not gifted with ![]() In Phoenix the default maximum iterations are also 50. Increasing doesn’t help, since I never have seen more than seven for datasets ending up with a warning: Newton's algorithm converged with a modified Hessian, indicating that the model may be over-specified. The output is suspect. The algorithm converged, but not at a local minimum. It may be in a trough, at a saddle point, or on a flat surface. ❝ No starting value can be set up with either PROC MIXED of SAS or lme() from package nlme of R. Datasets failing to converge in Phoenix: Initial variance matrix is not positive definite. This indicates an invalid starting point for the algorithm. However, initial values in Phoenix REML are obtained by the Method of Moments (MoM). It is not possible to set them “manually”.— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2014-10-09 17:32 (3847 d 07:56 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13681 Views: 38,589 |
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Does that remind me of something... NONMEM? — Kindest regards, nobody |
yjlee168 ★★★ ![]() ![]() Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2014-10-09 20:14 (3847 d 05:14 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13682 Views: 38,537 |
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Dear Helmut, ❝ I’m not gifted with OK. ❝ [...] ❝ Datasets failing to converge in Phoenix: Initial variance matrix is not positive definite. This indicates an invalid starting point for the algorithm. However, initial values in Phoenix REML are obtained by the Method of Moments (MoM). It is not possible to set them “manually”.If this is the massage for convergence failure, then it is not caused by "reaching its max. iterations..." as lme(). Is there any random effect specified or are all effects fixed in model for this situation? Could you try with all effects fixed to see if it can be improved? — All the best, -- Yung-jin Lee bear v2.9.2:- created by Hsin-ya Lee & Yung-jin Lee Kaohsiung, Taiwan https://www.pkpd168.com/bear Download link (updated) -> here |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-09 20:34 (3847 d 04:54 ago) @ yjlee168 Posting: # 13683 Views: 38,565 |
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Dear Yung-jin, ❝ […] it is not caused by "reaching its max. iterations..." as lme(). Exactly. ❝ Is there any random effect or are all effects fixed in model for this situation? Could you try with all effects fixed to see if it can be improved? Nope. I happens (only for some nasty datasets) in a partial replicate design (full replicates are OK) if following FDA’s mixed effects model for ABE:
The problem lies in the random section where the structure of the covariance structure is specified with TYPE=FA0(2) . CSH or FAO(1) helps. I don’t see how to go with ‘all fixed effects’ here…— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-11-03 15:54 (3822 d 08:34 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13826 Views: 37,898 |
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… from ThermoFischer S C I E N T I F I C Quote: Upon investigation, our development team has confirmed this aspect of the Article. Specifically, as noted in the user documentation, Kinetica software does employ an algorithm for a balanced design in both the case of balanced and unbalanced studies. Therefore, any results from unbalanced studies would be inaccurate. Although individual cases may differ, our preliminary assessment suggests that in most cases this error would result in only a small difference in the overall results. Download a scan here. — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-12-09 16:51 (3786 d 07:37 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 14037 Views: 37,402 |
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Dear Elba and all, ❝ You can expect more to come (2-group parallel ☐)… … the story continues.*
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |