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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-09-30 13:23 (4280 d 05:19 ago) Posting: # 13619 Views: 17,319 |
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Hi all, I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. I wonder what the equations then look like? Tried to look at the online manuals etc, but clearly the power to know is sending on frequencies at which I can't receive. So... can anyone shed a little light over this? Many thanks in advance and have a great day. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-01 11:26 (4279 d 07:16 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13628 Views: 15,348 |
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Dear ElMaestro, ❝ I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. Could you please elaborate? I haven't yet discovered such things in Proc Power. ❝ I wonder what the equations then look like? Tried to look at the online manuals etc, but clearly the power to know is sending on frequencies at which I can't receive. ... Me too .— Regards, Detlew |
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jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2014-10-01 22:55 (4278 d 19:47 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13639 Views: 15,319 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. Example output? I have poor imagination ![]() John |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-01 23:02 (4278 d 19:40 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 13640 Views: 15,470 |
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Hi D_labes and jag, example output: ![]() — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-02 15:00 (4278 d 03:42 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13642 Views: 15,246 |
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Hi Großer Meister, this is power/sample size calculations for the so-called "paired design", i.e. you have f.i. measurements before/after on the same subject and need a ratio/difference of before vs. after. N pairs is here the number of such paired observations. It has nothing to do with number of comparisons, whatever you want to compare. Hope I had you understand correctly. — Regards, Detlew |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-02 15:33 (4278 d 03:09 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 13643 Views: 15,231 |
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Thanks a lot d_labes, ❝ this is power/sample size calculations for the so-called "paired design", ❝ i.e. you have f.i. measurements before/after on the same subject and need a ratio/difference of before vs. after. ❝ ❝ N pairs is here the number of such paired observations. ❝ It has nothing to do with number of comparisons, whatever you want to compare. I am not sure how to get my head around it. 'Before' and 'after' is in the sense of a fixed effect exactly the same as 'T' and 'R': A column of sneaky 1's and 0's here and a column of sexy 1's and 0's there; in either case we'd be working on y=Blah+e where Blah has two levels (Before and after, or Test and Reference), leaving out other fixed stuff here because it doesn't affect power. Could you possibly check what a result from Proc Power would then look like for corr=0.0 and e.g. gmr=0.95, CV=0.25, n=18 or something ? Would that coincide with the usual power calculations from the world's finest package for power calculations widely known as PowerTOST? Many thanks for your help. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-02 15:43 (4278 d 02:59 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13644 Views: 15,269 |
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My Capt’n, sorry to interfere. ❝ in either case we'd be working on y=Blah+e ❝ where Blah has two levels (Before and after, or Test and Reference), leaving out other fixed stuff here because it doesn't affect power. In your OP you wrote about a 222 design – which has period+sequence in the model. The only application of paired designs I know of (in BA, not BE) are ones where you compare PK metrics in steady state to single dose (e.g., AUCτ to AUC∞ in order to assess deviation from linear PK). Naturally we have not sequence here (MD always after SD) and have to assume no period effect.Edit: Due to +1 df, the paired model is always more powerful than the cross-over. library(PowerTOST)— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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nobody nothing 2014-10-02 16:00 (4278 d 02:42 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13645 Views: 15,305 |
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power.TOST(CV=0.25, n=18, design="2x2x2") ...just to add the data for the requested CV of 25% ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-02 16:25 (4278 d 02:17 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13646 Views: 15,363 |
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Hi Hötzi, thanks for your input. I am ok with the fixed effects, they are not really what is behind the question. Let us take the long way around my question: I consider a 222BE study a paired design - it just has the added complexity of some fixed factors which are constants in a model. Fixed factors are just constants, no bother. That's is the reason why (to perspectivise a little):
— Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-04 20:13 (4275 d 22:29 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13648 Views: 15,211 |
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Aaaaaaah, finally got a little crack in the coconut. Google was my friend but it was hard work: Check this out. Anyone got the Philips paper from 1990? Edit half an hour later: Using the world's best package for power calculation known as power.TOST:
Had a moment of panic as the numbers apparently didn't match, but they do. Example 3 gave 68 subjects per sequence or 136 in total. Me likey. Gosh I am such a jerk. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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Helmut ★★★ ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-04 21:23 (4275 d 21:19 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13649 Views: 15,088 |
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Dear Apprentice of power estimations, ❝ Anyone got the Philips paper from 1990? I’ll send you a scan. Note that the paper deals with untransformed data (AR 0.80–1.20). More relevant the one by Diletti et al.* ❝ Using the world's best package for power calculation known as power.TOST: ❝ ❝ Another guy not reading the man-pages. ![]() Try this goodie: sampleN.TOST(CV=mse2CV(0.1003), theta0=1.1, targetpower=.95)
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
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Ben ★ Germany, 2014-10-05 12:43 (4275 d 05:59 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13650 Views: 15,219 |
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Dear Maestro/All, ❝ Could you possibly check what a result from Proc Power would then look like for corr=0.0 and e.g. gmr=0.95, CV=0.25, n=18 or something ? Would that coincide with the usual power calculations from the world's finest package for power calculations widely known as PowerTOST?
gives 0.583. This is the same as power.TOST(CV=0.25, n=18, design="paired"). If we change corr = 0 to for example corr = 0.6, proc power gives 0.940.Interesting... I went back to equation (3.5) in Patterson and Jones* and calculated the variance of the estimator of the treatment difference when taking into account the correlation (imho equation (3.5) assumes sB2 = 0, i.e. rho = 0). When doing so I end up with 2/n * sT2 * (1-rho). But as we know sT2 * (1-rho) is exactly equal to sW2. So the variance of the estimator of the treatment effect remains the same, even when taking into account the correlation ( ). Thus, the power is always the same, regardless of the correlation. In light of the observation above from proc power this does not make sense ... On the other hand: A higher correlation will result in higher sB2 which is compensated for via the subject effect in the model. Also, when simulating data sets with correlated outcomes and checking the power, the same result was obtained (i.e. power always the same).Any thoughts, apparently there must be some error somewhere...?? Best, Ben * Bioequivalence and Statistics in Clinical Pharmacology |
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ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-05 16:01 (4275 d 02:41 ago) @ Ben Posting: # 13652 Views: 14,948 |
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Hi Ben, ❝ So the variance of the estimator of the treatment effect remains the same, even when taking into account the correlation ( Basically, if you know the ratio and you know the variance estimate from it, then you shouldn't have any degree of freedom to choose a level of correlation between T and R, no? Perhaps this SAS stuff provides an answer to a question that is slightly different from the one we think we are asking. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
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![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/pics/Blue_and_yellow_ribbon_UA.png)
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). Thus, the power is always the same, regardless of the correlation. In light of the observation above from proc power this does not make sense ... On the other hand: A higher correlation will result in higher sB2 which is compensated for via the subject effect in the model. Also, when simulating data sets with correlated outcomes and checking the power, the same result was obtained (i.e. power always the same).