ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-09-30 13:23 (3863 d 10:15 ago) Posting: # 13619 Views: 14,853 |
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Hi all, I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. I wonder what the equations then look like? Tried to look at the online manuals etc, but clearly the power to know is sending on frequencies at which I can't receive. So... can anyone shed a little light over this? Many thanks in advance and have a great day. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-01 11:26 (3862 d 12:12 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13628 Views: 13,173 |
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Dear ElMaestro, ❝ I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. Could you please elaborate? I haven't yet discovered such things in Proc Power. ❝ I wonder what the equations then look like? Tried to look at the online manuals etc, but clearly the power to know is sending on frequencies at which I can't receive. ... Me too ![]() — Regards, Detlew |
jag009 ★★★ NJ, 2014-10-01 22:55 (3862 d 00:43 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13639 Views: 13,141 |
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Hi ElMaestro, ❝ I am not a SAS user but have noted that with SAS/Proc Power you can calculate sample size expressed as number of comparisons (or comparison pairs) for a given level of power while taking correlation into consideration. This seems relevant since in a 222BE-study the data are generally positively correlated within subject. Example output? I have poor imagination ![]() John |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-01 23:02 (3862 d 00:36 ago) @ jag009 Posting: # 13640 Views: 13,228 |
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Hi D_labes and jag, example output: ![]() — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
d_labes ★★★ Berlin, Germany, 2014-10-02 15:00 (3861 d 08:38 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13642 Views: 13,058 |
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Hi Großer Meister, this is power/sample size calculations for the so-called "paired design", i.e. you have f.i. measurements before/after on the same subject and need a ratio/difference of before vs. after. N pairs is here the number of such paired observations. It has nothing to do with number of comparisons, whatever you want to compare. Hope I had you understand correctly. — Regards, Detlew |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-02 15:33 (3861 d 08:05 ago) @ d_labes Posting: # 13643 Views: 13,072 |
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Thanks a lot d_labes, ❝ this is power/sample size calculations for the so-called "paired design", ❝ i.e. you have f.i. measurements before/after on the same subject and need a ratio/difference of before vs. after. ❝ ❝ N pairs is here the number of such paired observations. ❝ It has nothing to do with number of comparisons, whatever you want to compare. I am not sure how to get my head around it. 'Before' and 'after' is in the sense of a fixed effect exactly the same as 'T' and 'R': A column of sneaky 1's and 0's here and a column of sexy 1's and 0's there; in either case we'd be working on y=Blah+e where Blah has two levels (Before and after, or Test and Reference), leaving out other fixed stuff here because it doesn't affect power. Could you possibly check what a result from Proc Power would then look like for corr=0.0 and e.g. gmr=0.95, CV=0.25, n=18 or something ? Would that coincide with the usual power calculations from the world's finest package for power calculations widely known as PowerTOST? Many thanks for your help. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-02 15:43 (3861 d 07:55 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13644 Views: 13,080 |
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My Capt’n, sorry to interfere. ❝ in either case we'd be working on y=Blah+e ❝ where Blah has two levels (Before and after, or Test and Reference), leaving out other fixed stuff here because it doesn't affect power. In your OP you wrote about a 222 design – which has period+sequence in the model. The only application of paired designs I know of (in BA, not BE) are ones where you compare PK metrics in steady state to single dose (e.g., AUCτ to AUC∞ in order to assess deviation from linear PK). Naturally we have not sequence here (MD always after SD) and have to assume no period effect.Edit: Due to +1 df, the paired model is always more powerful than the cross-over. library(PowerTOST) — Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
nobody nothing 2014-10-02 16:00 (3861 d 07:38 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13645 Views: 13,105 |
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power.TOST(CV=0.25, n=18, design="2x2x2") ...just to add the data for the requested CV of 25% ![]() — Kindest regards, nobody |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-02 16:25 (3861 d 07:13 ago) @ Helmut Posting: # 13646 Views: 13,106 |
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Hi Hötzi, thanks for your input. I am ok with the fixed effects, they are not really what is behind the question. Let us take the long way around my question: I consider a 222BE study a paired design - it just has the added complexity of some fixed factors which are constants in a model. Fixed factors are just constants, no bother. That's is the reason why (to perspectivise a little):
— Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-04 20:13 (3859 d 03:25 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13648 Views: 12,992 |
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Aaaaaaah, finally got a little crack in the coconut. Google was my friend but it was hard work: Check this out. Anyone got the Philips paper from 1990? Edit half an hour later: Using the world's best package for power calculation known as power.TOST:
Had a moment of panic as the numbers apparently didn't match, but they do. Example 3 gave 68 subjects per sequence or 136 in total. Me likey. Gosh I am such a jerk. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |
Helmut ★★★ ![]() ![]() Vienna, Austria, 2014-10-04 21:23 (3859 d 02:15 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13649 Views: 12,918 |
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Dear Apprentice of power estimations, ❝ Anyone got the Philips paper from 1990? I’ll send you a scan. Note that the paper deals with untransformed data (AR 0.80–1.20). More relevant the one by Diletti et al.* ❝ Using the world's best package for power calculation known as power.TOST: ❝ ❝ Another guy not reading the man-pages. ![]() Try this goodie: sampleN.TOST(CV=mse2CV(0.1003), theta0=1.1, targetpower=.95)
— Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна! ![]() Helmut Schütz ![]() The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮 Science Quotes |
Ben ★ 2014-10-05 12:43 (3858 d 10:55 ago) @ ElMaestro Posting: # 13650 Views: 12,977 |
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Dear Maestro/All, ❝ Could you possibly check what a result from Proc Power would then look like for corr=0.0 and e.g. gmr=0.95, CV=0.25, n=18 or something ? Would that coincide with the usual power calculations from the world's finest package for power calculations widely known as PowerTOST?
gives 0.583. This is the same as power.TOST(CV=0.25, n=18, design="paired") . If we change corr = 0 to for example corr = 0.6, proc power gives 0.940.Interesting... I went back to equation (3.5) in Patterson and Jones* and calculated the variance of the estimator of the treatment difference when taking into account the correlation (imho equation (3.5) assumes sB2 = 0, i.e. rho = 0). When doing so I end up with 2/n * sT2 * (1-rho). But as we know sT2 * (1-rho) is exactly equal to sW2. So the variance of the estimator of the treatment effect remains the same, even when taking into account the correlation ( ![]() Any thoughts, apparently there must be some error somewhere...?? Best, Ben * Bioequivalence and Statistics in Clinical Pharmacology |
ElMaestro ★★★ Denmark, 2014-10-05 16:01 (3858 d 07:37 ago) @ Ben Posting: # 13652 Views: 12,766 |
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Hi Ben, ❝ So the variance of the estimator of the treatment effect remains the same, even when taking into account the correlation ( Basically, if you know the ratio and you know the variance estimate from it, then you shouldn't have any degree of freedom to choose a level of correlation between T and R, no? Perhaps this SAS stuff provides an answer to a question that is slightly different from the one we think we are asking. — Pass or fail! ElMaestro |