Cmin (cave: lengthy post) [NCA / SHAM]
❝ At what point do you think the increase in sample size becomes unethical?
Good question, next question. Gut feeling:* n>40 (T/R 0.95, power 0.80, CVintra just slightly >30%). That’s actually the sample size for HVDs/HVDPs.
❝ Do you have a good reference article that shows that Clast is considered unreliable?
No. I would not say it’s unreliable. Only:
- Clast is likely to be the worst metric when it comes to variability. Variability was the reason why EMA and WHO are asking in single dose studies for AUCt – not AUC∞ – as the metric for extent of absorption.
- Missing samples are a nightmare. A similar case can be made for truncated AUC72 or AUCt in general. Any missing last sample(s) will bias the estimated T/R ratio of the particular subject(s) away from 100% – that’s probably the reason why regulators don’t care about this issue. But what if the ‘true’ ratio of the formulations is 105% and in one subject after test the last scheduled sample is missing? This subject will pull the study’s ratio towards 100% (shifting the CI downwards, increasing the chance of BE, and thus increasing patient’s risk). In my studies I pragmatically use AUCt if the LOQ is low enough so that my residual AUCs are quite small – crossing fingers that everything means out. Haven’t performed a study with AUC72 yet, but most likely I will try to make an argument for an estimated Ĉ72 (since residual AUC will be much higher and the effect on the overall estimate larger).
- Given the problems above for AUC, Clast (as a single point metric) is much more difficult to handle. If your drug accumulates, fine – but still the variability is expected to be the highest of all metrics. If not – very bad. The concept paper (Section 3.1) states:
The newly revised Note for Guidance on the Investigation of Bioequivalence (EWP/QWP/1401/98 rev1), the emergence of science as well as applications on new types of formulations require thorough discussions on: […]
In the presentations given here this statement was mentioned in the introduction but not further explored. No idea whether the PK group is considering it. A multiple dose study in a replicate design is no fun – lots of samples.
• possibility of widening (and narrowing) of acceptance ranges
❝ By Clast, you mean the sample taken ~5 minutes prior to dosing, right?
Yes. In the actual study we sampled 5 minutes prior to the 2nd dosing (1st period: 23:55) and at 24:00 post dose in the last profile (2nd period) in order to get values as close as possible to τ. We could reliably estimate λz. Since the study was balanced we had to estimate C24 from C23:55 in 50% of cases – we also used the estimated AUCτ. Another option would be to sample in all profiles at 23:55 (consistent with the IR GL, Section 4.1.4):
In multiple-dose studies, the pre-dose sample should be taken immediately before (within 5 minutes) dosing and the last sample is recommended to be taken within 10 minutes of the nominal time for the dosage interval to ensure an accurate determination of AUC(0-τ).
- Why ≤-5 min (pre dose) and ≤±10 min at τ?
- I prefer to get »an accurate determination of AUC(0-τ)« by sampling at the intended τ if possible and use an estimate otherwise.
❝ Problems will continue to arise with steady state studies until this new draft guideline is released.
Right. Problems with the current NfG arise from its ambiguities:
4.1.1. Rate and extent of absorption, fluctuation
The pharmacokinetic parameters of interest are AUC, Cmax and Cmin or other means reflecting fluctuation.
5.1 Prolonged release formulations
Assessment of bioequivalence will be based on AUCτ, Cmax and Cmin applying similar statistical procedures as for the immediate release formulations.
(my emphases; note ‘and vs. or’)
Sorry for the lenghty post.
- I try not to think with my gut. If I’m serious about understanding the world,
thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be,
is likely to get me into trouble. Carl Sagan
Dif-tor heh smusma 🖖🏼 Довге життя Україна!
![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/pics/Blue_and_yellow_ribbon_UA.png)
Helmut Schütz
![[image]](https://static.bebac.at/img/CC by.png)
The quality of responses received is directly proportional to the quality of the question asked. 🚮
Science Quotes
Complete thread:
- Cmin (story continued) Helmut 2011-06-22 17:03 [NCA / SHAM]
- Cmin (story continued) Marcel 2011-09-15 10:21
- Cmin (story continued) Helmut 2011-09-15 14:37
- Cmin (story continued) Marcel 2011-09-16 08:01
- Cmin (cave: lengthy post)Helmut 2011-09-16 13:26
- Cmin (cave: lengthy post) Marcel 2011-09-20 08:33
- Cmin no more? Helmut 2011-09-20 10:08
- perspective from the PD world ElMaestro 2011-09-20 10:01
- perspective from the PD world Helmut 2011-09-20 10:20
- Cmin (cave: lengthy post) Marcel 2011-09-20 08:33
- Cmin (cave: lengthy post)Helmut 2011-09-16 13:26
- Cmin (story continued) Marcel 2011-09-16 08:01
- Cmin (story continued) Helmut 2011-09-15 14:37
- Cmin (story continued) Marcel 2011-09-15 10:21