## Group effects EMA [Two-Stage / GS Designs]

Hi VStus,

» I have performed exercise on this dataset in R and have to support Mittyri: addition of more effects beyond group increases MSE and, therefore, CI: (...)

Hehe, this is a truly remarkable phenomenon.

Inclusion of more factors or more crosses/nestings introduces new columns in the muddle matrix, so the residual variability measured as SS decreases. Nevertheless, the residual variance, MSE or SS divided by DF, may go up as the new columns in the muddle matrix steals a bit from the DF pool. You should see that if you do an anova on your model object.

Quite possibly, you are right in theory the width of the CI could in such cases increase? I did not recalculate it in this case, perhaps that is really possible?!?

I doubt it would happen with biological data, but I see now I should not have stated it like I did in the post above. I apologise for any confusion my post led to.

» Due to my limited R knowledge, I cannot figure out how to add other effects recommended by FDA e.g.

You are ok as long as you code subjects uniquely, then it does not matter if you call them Subject or Subject in Sequence in Group etc. Search this forum for the famous Silly-o-meter and it will be crystal clear, of course.

Not?!?

A good weekend to all of you.

» I have performed exercise on this dataset in R and have to support Mittyri: addition of more effects beyond group increases MSE and, therefore, CI: (...)

Hehe, this is a truly remarkable phenomenon.

Inclusion of more factors or more crosses/nestings introduces new columns in the muddle matrix, so the residual variability measured as SS decreases. Nevertheless, the residual variance, MSE or SS divided by DF, may go up as the new columns in the muddle matrix steals a bit from the DF pool. You should see that if you do an anova on your model object.

Quite possibly, you are right in theory the width of the CI could in such cases increase? I did not recalculate it in this case, perhaps that is really possible?!?

I doubt it would happen with biological data, but I see now I should not have stated it like I did in the post above. I apologise for any confusion my post led to.

» Due to my limited R knowledge, I cannot figure out how to add other effects recommended by FDA e.g.

`subject(sequence x group)`

, but I'm afraid that at least in R, the more related effects - the wider confidence intervals...You are ok as long as you code subjects uniquely, then it does not matter if you call them Subject or Subject in Sequence in Group etc. Search this forum for the famous Silly-o-meter and it will be crystal clear, of course.

Not?!?

A good weekend to all of you.

—

Pass or fail!

ElMaestro

Pass or fail!

ElMaestro

### Complete thread:

- Potvin C in the EU Helmut 2013-04-16 17:40
- Potvin C in the EU ElMaestro 2013-04-17 02:31
- Potvin C in the EU Helmut 2013-04-17 12:23
- 2 Groups model FDA d_labes 2013-04-17 13:10
- 2 Groups model FDA Helmut 2013-04-17 16:37
- Group effects obsolete? d_labes 2013-04-18 09:55
- Group effects FDA/EMA Helmut 2013-04-19 14:34
- Group effects FDA/EMA mittyri 2014-08-21 15:34
- Group effects FDA/EMA ElMaestro 2014-08-21 17:31
- Group effects EMA mittyri 2014-10-01 11:25
- Group effects EMA ElMaestro 2014-10-01 11:31
- Group effects EMA Helmut 2014-10-01 13:24
- Group effects EMA VStus 2016-10-06 22:06
- Group effects EMAElMaestro 2016-10-07 12:45
- Group effects EMA mittyri 2016-10-07 15:06
- Fixed effects model with Group term mittyri 2016-10-09 13:27
- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values mittyri 2016-10-10 18:33
- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values ElMaestro 2016-10-10 20:10
- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values Helmut 2016-10-11 00:17
- Holy War of type III d_labes 2016-10-11 13:17
- Significance of Group effect in Russia: why the type III is so 'important' mittyri 2016-10-11 15:07

- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values zizou 2016-10-11 01:06
- FDA group model in R mittyri 2016-10-11 13:43
- FDA group model in R ElMaestro 2016-10-12 01:07
- FDA group model in R VStus 2016-10-17 15:32
- FDA group model in R ElMaestro 2016-10-17 18:58
- FDA group model in R VStus 2016-10-20 13:57

- FDA group model in R ElMaestro 2016-10-17 18:58

- FDA group model in R mittyri 2016-10-11 13:43

- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values ElMaestro 2016-10-10 20:10
- Fixed effects model with Group term VStus 2016-10-20 13:54

- Fixed effects model: changing the F, p values mittyri 2016-10-10 18:33

- Fixed effects model with Group term mittyri 2016-10-09 13:27

- Group effects EMA mittyri 2016-10-07 15:06

- Group effects EMAElMaestro 2016-10-07 12:45

- Group effects EMA VStus 2016-10-06 22:06

- Group effects FDA/EMA zizou 2016-12-31 02:54
- Group effects FDA/EMA Helmut 2017-06-03 14:57

- Group effects EMA mittyri 2014-10-01 11:25

- Group effects FDA/EMA ElMaestro 2014-08-21 17:31

- Group effects FDA/EMA mittyri 2014-08-21 15:34

- Group effects FDA/EMA Helmut 2013-04-19 14:34
- 2 Groups model FDA hiren379 2013-08-22 14:32
- Homework Helmut 2013-08-23 11:53

- Group effects obsolete? d_labes 2013-04-18 09:55

- 2 Groups model FDA Helmut 2013-04-17 16:37

- 2 Groups model FDA d_labes 2013-04-17 13:10

- Potvin C in the EU Helmut 2013-04-17 12:23

- Potvin C in the EU ElMaestro 2013-04-17 02:31