overspecified model? [General Statistics]
❝ I have a 3 period, 2 treatment crossover (TRR, RTT) design and used the following code (as per FDA guidance) to analyse the data:
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❝ FDA 2001 Apendix E
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❝ The above analysis resulted in the following note in the SAS log: "Estimated G matrix not positive definite" suggesting that "one or more variance components on the RANDOM statement is/are estimated to be zero and could/should be removed from the model."
Yes, old story. SAS complains about an over-specified model (T is not repeated) and gives a variance for T.
See this thread.❝ My colleague is suggesting I switch the covariance structure to VC however I'm concerned that this negates the REPEATED statement and is questionable in a 3x2 design. What is your opinion on this point?
Agree.
❝ I used the CSH structure but, as expected, encountered the same notes in the log.
Yep.
❝ Looking through the covariance structures, Compound Symmetry (CS) looks more appropriate as it accounts for correlation & assumes it is constant regardless of the lag between pairs of repeated measurements (sounds OK given the study design).
Interesting idea. At least you don’t get a warning any more.

Tried it with EMA’s example data set II (TRR|RTR|RRT) and got (Phoenix 6.2 = poor man’s SAS):
90% CI CVWR CVWT
EMA's Model A 97.32 107.46
EMA’s Model B 97.32 107.46
EMA’s crippled model NA 11.20 NA
FDA FA0(2) 97.05 107.76 11.55 8.65 Warning (SAS: CVWT=3.87)
FDA CSH not estimable 8.26 7.15 Warning
FDA CS 97.05 107.76 11.55 18.67 no Warning!Pro: CVWR is identical to FA0(2) and you don’t get a warning with CS.
Con: That’s not what FDA expects you to do: FA0(2) or possibly [sic!] CSH. I have strong doubts whether the value of CVWT makes any sense.
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Helmut Schütz
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Science Quotes
Complete thread:
- Estimated G matrix not + definite when using FDA model randombadger 2011-06-22 11:45
- overspecified model?Helmut 2011-06-22 13:36
- Overspecified model d_labes 2011-06-29 09:39
- Overspecified model Helmut 2011-06-29 14:11
- Overspecified model d_labes 2011-06-29 09:39
- overspecified model?Helmut 2011-06-22 13:36
